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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point.

It is very difficult to legislate in such areas because, in effect, we are saying that we want to make changes or further improve the ethics and code of conduct of our police force. In doing so, we acknowledge the hard work that it currently does. However, as legislators, we have a duty to protect the public and to ensure that there is a constant process of revising and reviewing whether those things are working. The Angiolini inquiry report was very good at identifying many areas where those things are not working.

However, we also have a duty to protect police officers themselves, and we must be careful about the tone and language that we use in debates such as this. Other colleagues have mentioned the incredibly difficult circumstances in which many of our police officers work. We have all been to the SPF awards at Dynamic Earth, across the road from this building, and have met some of the hard-working officers. We know about some of the difficulties that they face.

However, this review is important because, as we have heard, the current complaints processes are met with a number of responses. Words that were used in evidence to the committee with regard to those processes include “clumsy”, “cumbersome”, “complex”, “off-putting” and “takes too long”. Those are all big red flags that something needs to be addressed. All MSPs will have dealt with casework involving people who are finding it very difficult to make complaints about the police to the police.

We also have a duty to improve practices that root out individuals who have somehow failed to be identified by the vetting process. That is inevitable, given that, between its commissioned and civilian staff, Police Scotland is an organisation of more than 23,000 people. It is a big public sector body and, in any large organisation, people will fall through the cracks and there will be bad-faith actors. However, it is important that the public has confidence that we are addressing that situation, which comes back to the other point about the public’s faith in processes, because policing by consent is necessary and necessitates robust codes of conduct and on-going review of how effective they are.

My final point in that regard is about protecting officers themselves, because malicious complaints can and do happen, and the processes that are in place to deal with those complaints must be effective. Much of the work on those processes has come about over the past few years as a result of well-publicised and horrific situations in which serving members of various police forces have committed horrific crimes, the most famous being the case of the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens.

I was struck by the response of the Met to this wider societal debate in comparison with the response of Police Scotland. The Met immediately introduced a number of changes, which I found to be very welcome. There was an immediate independent review of its culture and practices. There was a review of all current investigations into sexual misconduct or domestic abuse in which the accused was a police officer. Sampling was done of cases from the past 10 years, there was a root-and-branch review of its recruitment and vetting processes and, more importantly, there was an increase in the number of investigators employed to deal with the timescales and the backlogs—which still exist here in Scotland.

We might say, “That’s the Met. They’ve had issues for a long time. How is that relevant to us?” I get the distinct impression that, with the exceptionalism that we often have, we think that we do not have problems on that scale because we have not had the types of high-profile attack that have happened south of the border. However, that does not negate the problem here. In Scotland, nearly 2,000 complaints remain unsolved, of which 1,200 are yet to be allocated to an investigator and 684 have been allocated to an investigator but are yet to be concluded. I suspect that they are taking a very long time.

In the limited time that I have remaining, I want to address the duty of co-operation or duty of candour. The Government has implied that the duty of candour in section 3 is simply different in terminology from the duty of co-operation that was proposed in the Angiolini report and that has been introduced in England and Wales. I hear that some amendments may be lodged in that regard and I will read them with great interest, but at present it is unclear whether there is a belief, particularly on the part of the PIRC, that the duty of candour goes far enough to meet the requirements of a duty of co-operation.

A number of sections seek to make sweeping reforms of the PIRC’s powers. The thing that struck me most strongly in the PIRC’s response to the stage 1 report was that some of the powers are unwanted. The commissioner, Michelle Macleod, stated that the PIRC would be carrying out the preliminary investigation and the assessment, making the decisions and presenting the case, and that there would perhaps be a perception that there were no checks and balances in that process. That is an important point of feedback. A legal representative said that their biggest criticism of the bill was that the vast majority of complaints would still be made to and handled by the police and that there might be a perception that there was not enough independent or autonomous investigation.

In the interest of time, I will not rehearse the arguments about finances, but a financial memorandum that is £4 million out at stage 1 really needs some serious consideration. The Finance and Public Administration Committee will certainly have words to say about that. Government ministers, but also the senior civil servants who support them in relation to financial memorandums, need to have a serious think about some of the charges that are laid against them in that respect.

I will close where I started. In this country, policing is done with the consent of its citizens but, for the police to have that consent, they must maintain the public’s respect and confidence. That has been rattled in recent years, but we can fix that. The bill will go some way towards doing that, but I question whether more could be done here and now while we wait for the bill to be passed. I think that the answer is yes.

15:32  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...