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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 October 2024

30 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Parliamentary Bureau Motions
Ruskell, Mark Green Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

It is clear that our communities have suffered from years of bus services being run for private profit rather than in the public interest, so change is desperately needed in order that the public can take greater control over how our services are run.

The SSI that we are considering today would create a system whereby a panel of experts established by the traffic commissioner would have the final say on new franchising proposals. However, the previous traffic commissioner was reported as having made comments against bus franchising. Given that the stated objective of the traffic commissioner is to

“minimise regulatory burden on operators”,

that does not give confidence to transport authorities that their plans will be fairly judged.

Yesterday, the minister attempted to allay those concerns by pointing to future guidance, but it is not clear how such future guidance will address the fundamental concern. How will the public interest be reflected on the panel rather than its being dominated by members who have a largely technical view of bus operation that comes from their experience in a privatised sector? Unfortunately, there are even some in the private bus industry who, sadly, have stated that they see the proposed changes as a form of theft of their business model.

The minister said that the issues in question could have been debated in 2019, when the Transport (Scotland) Bill was considered, but SPT raised strong concerns in evidence at the time. In the original consultation on the bill, it was ministers who were to make the final decision on franchising. The switch to the use of a panel in the final 2019 act was warmly welcomed by private operators, including FirstGroup. Today, we know that the panel system has been discredited and that new models of partnership between national and local government appear to be the most effective and most robust way of introducing franchising. According to an adviser to the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government’s on-going commitment to the panel process leaves Scotland as a backward-facing outlier on bus reform in the UK.

Yesterday, as we have heard, the NZET Committee could not have been clearer in its support for new bus franchising and municipal models, but we need to ensure that the legislation that underpins that mission actually works. Therefore, the Greens will vote to annul the SSI, and it is up to the Government to consider whether improvements can be made to the panel process or whether a change through primary legislation is now needed.

Regardless of the outcome tonight, SPT will, I believe, continue to work on franchising over the next two years, even though no guidance on that is currently available from the Scottish Government. I, too, spoke to the chief executive of SPT this afternoon. As it is unlikely that any decision on any proposal that emerges from SPT’s work will go for approval until summer 2027, there really is time for the Parliament to fix the problem. I am sure that SPT and others will be prepared to work with Transport Scotland and ministers on further necessary reforms should primary legislation be needed.

18:19  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S6M-15078, on consideration of a Scottish statutory instrument. I call Alexander Bu...
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I lodged a motion to annul the instrument so that, at yesterday’s meeting of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee, we would have the option to annul ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Douglas Lumsden Con
I will take an intervention.
Graham Simpson Con
When the minister speaks, he might claim that voting to annul the instrument will bring work on franchising to a halt or will take us back to square 1. That ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Mr Lumsden, I can give you back some of the time for that intervention.
Douglas Lumsden Con
It is good that Graham Simpson spoke to SPT today, to hear from it exactly what the implications of annulling the SSI would be. If the panel appointment stag...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
At its meeting yesterday, the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee agreed to a motion to annul the SSI that we are debating today. Scottish Labour suppor...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the member give way on that point?
Alex Rowley Lab
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I also believe that that view is in keeping with the spirit of the powers that were created through the Transport (Scotl...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
It is clear that our communities have suffered from years of bus services being run for private profit rather than in the public interest, so change is despe...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
The Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee, which I sit on, was of one voice yesterday in saying that we all support franchising. Much has been said about ...
Douglas Lumsden Con
Will Bob Doris take an intervention?
Bob Doris SNP
I do not think that I have time. I apologise to Mr Lumsden for that. That said, any party—Government or Opposition—could consider an alternative to the regu...
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie) SNP
I feel that I must express my extreme disappointment and—dare I say it?—my surprise at the short-sightedness of the decision of members of the Net Zero, Ener...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Minister, resume your seat. I remind members that they are perfectly entitled to ask for an intervention, but it is at the discretion of the person who has t...
Jim Fairlie SNP
In the interests of time, I will continue, because there are a lot of points to get through. As the regional bus strategy continues to be developed, with fra...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The minister is concluding Minister, you need to conclude. You had up to three minutes.
Jim Fairlie SNP
The other flawed option that is being proposed by others is a change to primary legislation. At this point in the parliamentary session, that, too, is simply...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Minister, you need to conclude. Interruption.
Jim Fairlie SNP
I could understand if there was a desire to kill the idea of franchising. The Tory position on the issue is understandable, but what makes no sense whatsoeve...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Minister, I ask you to resume your seat for a second. I have asked the minister to conclude. I will not be barracked, nor will he. I will start naming indivi...
Jim Fairlie SNP
Bear with me, Presiding Officer. If Labour and the Greens vote with the Tories today and annul the regulations, they will have in effect blocked franchising ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The question on the motion will be taken at decision time. The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S6M-15079, on approval ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Liam Kerr, who joins us remotely, for up to three minutes. 18:27
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I wish to speak against the motion to pass the coronavirus extension regulations, but let me be clear exactly why. I find myself in the perhaps unusual posit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Angela Constance to respond, for up to three minutes, please. 18:29
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
Colleagues will remember that the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Act 2022 included a number of temporary justice measures to ensure that our ju...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The question on the motion will be put at decision time. The next item of business is consideration of three Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Jamie Hepbu...