Hansard

The Convener (Edward Mountain) Con

Good morning, and welcome to the 31st meeting in 2024 of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. The first agenda item for consideration is evidence on...

The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie) SNP

Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to discuss the regulations. As we know, franchising is an important tool for local transport authorities to improve s...

The Convener Con

When I was welcoming people to the committee, I should also have welcomed Graham Simpson, who has joined us today. He will get to ask questions at the end of...

Jim Fairlie SNP

I was not even sitting in the Parliament in 2019, so I cannot answer for the decision-making process at the time, but I trust the parliamentary procedure, an...

The Convener Con

There were a lot of amendments to the 2019 act—I seem to remember sitting in the committee and dealing with more than 100 amendments on the workplace parking...

Jim Fairlie SNP

We would not be minded to change just this provision. We would have to change the act, which would take us beyond 2026.

The Convener Con

Why would you have to change the whole act, if this is just a part of it?

Jim Fairlie SNP

Because it is set in primary legislation. It is part of the 2019 act, so we would have to go back to the beginning and start again.

The Convener Con

Can you not change a section of an act through primary legislation? It looks as if Bridget Bryden wants to help me out—I might have got this confused.

Bridget Bryden (Scottish Government)

It would be possible to make such a change, but we would have to look at the whole Scottish franchising model. The provision has been built in as a safeguard...

The Convener Con

Committee members have a lot of questions. I will bring in Mark Ruskell first, to be followed by Douglas Lumsden and Monica Lennon.

Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green

Good morning. Minister, will you explain why a franchising scheme that is approved by a panel is less likely to be subject to legal challenge than one that i...

Jim Fairlie SNP

Such a scheme could still be challenged legally but, if it has gone through a panel, that panel will have looked at the requirement for a franchise to be est...

Mark Ruskell Green

In relation to the risk, you will understand that there is concern about the panel model, and there is not good evidence that that kind of system has worked ...

Jim Fairlie SNP

Under that approach, a scheme is robustly scrutinised by an independent body that has no political input and is separate from the organisations and the autho...

Mark Ruskell Green

Is there evidence that panels reduce the risk?

Jim Fairlie SNP

Clearly, this is the first one that we have done, so we do not have evidence. As I said, a scheme could still be legally challenged, but this is a safeguard ...

Mark Ruskell Green

You said that we are where we are with the legislation, but 2019 was some time ago, and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge with progress on bus franc...

Jim Fairlie SNP

Would I personally do that? I would not answer that question right now; I would go back and have a much broader look at everything right back to 2019. I have...

Mark Ruskell Green

My final question is about the guidance that could come on the back of this Scottish statutory instrument. You understand the concerns that have been raised ...

Jim Fairlie SNP

We will have a memorandum of understanding, and the guidance is under development. I suspect that somebody will ask whether franchising could go ahead whethe...

The Convener Con

Douglas Lumsden has some questions.

Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con

I will pick up on that point first. Minister, you seem to be saying that, if the instrument is annulled, the panels will continue anyway.

Jim Fairlie SNP

Yes—that is in primary legislation.

Douglas Lumsden Con

If the instrument was annulled, what would the Government’s response be? What would its next step be?

Jim Fairlie SNP

If the regulations are to be annulled, I assure you that the rest of my day will be scrapped—let me put it that way. We will go away and have a long and deta...

Douglas Lumsden Con

You say that that could happen. Would it happen, or would there be changes? I am slightly confused because such a system was tried in England, but it did not...

Jim Fairlie SNP

The process that you talk about being used down south is the Nexus process, which was different from this one. That looked at financial aspects; we are looki...

Douglas Lumsden Con

Yes, but after speaking to your neighbours, you would think that you would learn some lessons. From your evidence at question 6, it seems that the Government...

Jim Fairlie SNP

We could revisit the act if people wanted us to do that, but we would have to forget about franchising between now and 2026, because we would have to go back...