Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 29 October 2024
29 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Sustainability
Given that year-on-year increases in the social security budget have accompanied a reduction in the number of people who are available for work, and given that, post-Covid, there has been a significant increase in people on health-related benefits in Scotland and the UK but no similar rise in equivalent nations, we have to question what the underlying causes are. I put it to the Scottish Government that its inability to deal with chronic disease over 17 years and its inability to bring down national health service waiting lists are surely factors in people moving from being available as part of the labour force to being on long-term disability benefits. That is busting the Scottish Government’s budget over time.
On welfare, the SNP has made a political virtue of the way in which it has used devolved powers over benefits to meet political goals. That is a decision by the Government. However, as was referenced earlier, the Government will soon be spending £1 billion more on social security than Barnett consequentials allow for. The minister dresses that up in the language of investment. If it is an investment, what economic return does she see?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15048, in the name of Shona Robison, on fiscal sustainability. I invite members who wish to speak in the ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Shona Robison)
SNP
Today’s debate comes at a timely moment, as we await the first budget of the new United Kingdom Government tomorrow. All eyes will be on the Chancellor of th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
It is absolutely right that, in the short term, we have to look at net inward migration. In the longer term, however, global population growth is slowing and...
Shona Robison
SNP
Yes, I would. I will shortly come on to outline what we need to do to bring all that together in one place so that we can look at it collectively across all ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary is quite right to say that she has had to take emergency decisions. Does she now regret the fact that this debate did not take place mu...
Shona Robison
SNP
That would not have made any difference to the fact that emergency controls had to be put in place because of the additional pressures from pay as a result o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
I call Michael Marra to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. 15:01
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, in my role as deputy convener, in this very impor...
Shona Robison
SNP
I will set this out in a lot more detail later but, in short, I mean to go from addressing the horizon that the MTFS looks at to addressing the “how”. The de...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
You can have your time back.
Michael Marra
Lab
It will certainly be welcome to see those details from the Government, and to hear how they apply to its broader policy agenda. I mentioned earlier that pub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Thank you, Mr Marra. Before I call the next speaker, I encourage all members who are pushing to participate in the debate to check that they have pressed the...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
There is a ticking time bomb at the heart of Scotland’s finances. In fact, there are four: the tax system, public sector pay, the Scottish welfare system and...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)
SNP
On that, will the member give way?
Craig Hoy
Con
I will make some progress, then come back to the member, in a moment. If the SNP had done that, the minister would, this year alone, have had £600 million o...
Michelle Thomson
SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Craig Hoy
Con
We cannot grow the Scottish economy if we increase regulation or abruptly turn off the taps on North Sea oil and gas. We cannot dramatically expand the footp...
Michelle Thomson
SNP
I thank the member for giving way. In some respects, his having carried on speaking has added weight to my point. I wonder what he thinks of Mark Logan’s re...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I can give you the time back for the intervention, Mr Hoy.
Craig Hoy
Con
If members saw the response of members on the Government’s front bench, they will have realised that they dealt with that intervention with the same level of...
Shona Robison
SNP
rose—
Craig Hoy
Con
I will not take an intervention, at the moment. Ireland has just two tax bands—20 per cent and 40 per cent. I accept that there are countries where the tax ...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Craig Hoy
Con
I will, in a second. However, ministers might not want to do that, because a simplified tax system is also a transparent one, because the smoke and mirrors ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I encourage members to press their intervention buttons.
Daniel Johnson
Lab
Noted, Deputy Presiding Officer. The problem with what Mr Hoy has just set out is that he invokes countries with not just simpler tax systems but lower tax ...
Craig Hoy
Con
Given that year-on-year increases in the social security budget have accompanied a reduction in the number of people who are available for work, and given th...
Shona Robison
SNP
The return on the investment in the Scottish child payment is fewer children being in poverty, fewer who grow up into poverty and fewer who have their life c...
Craig Hoy
Con
No. I am saying that we would grow the economy to a position in which, through time, those benefits would not be as necessary as they now are. We have to ask...
Shona Robison
SNP
Will Craig Hoy give way on that point?