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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 October 2024

29 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Sustainability
Hoy, Craig Con South Scotland Watch on SPTV

If members saw the response of members on the Government’s front bench, they will have realised that they dealt with that intervention with the same level of disregard as I do. Fundamentally, we are here to talk about people’s jobs, livelihoods and mortgages—not to throw around cheap insults.

Fundamentally, fiscal sustainability is inextricably linked to fiscal responsibility. All too often, however, the SNP talks about how it wants to spend money, but not about how it will raise it or save it. It talks about how to raise tax, but not about how to simplify it, and I am yet to hear an SNP minister talk credibly of the case for cutting tax in Scotland. The SNP repeatedly puts barriers to investment in the way of business, rather than deregulating the landscape in which business needs to operate.

At its heart, the Government’s motion pays only lip service to the need for public sector reform and how it will deliver sustainable growth. It reveals that the Government would prefer to talk about short-term fixes and about increasing borrowing capacity to talking about long-term strategic and structural reforms.

Only a few weeks ago, Shona Robison came to Parliament to reluctantly reveal a near £1 billion in-year budget black hole. I would like to remind the cabinet secretary of what she said in May 2023 in “Scotland’s Fiscal Outlook: The Scottish Government’s Medium-Term Financial Strategy”. She said:

“I am setting out how this Government will maintain a sustainable financial position over the medium-term”,

and that she would be

“open and honest with the public”.

If she was serious about maintaining sustainable finances, how on earth did she find herself coming back to Parliament to reveal such a large in-year overspend? Why did the Government neglect to publish a clear public sector pay policy last year? Why did the cabinet secretary allow assumptions to be made for a certain rise in public sector pay when, in the end, she signed up to a far higher inflation-busting increase? Why did she not realise that, in agreeing to a settlement of that scale, she was, in effect, setting fire to her budget? She has done that not only for this year, but for future years, when there will be no ScotWind coffers to raid.

I want to delve deeper into tax, because that could well be one of the dividing lines in the months and years ahead. On the future of Scottish tax, we could do worse than look back to reforming Chancellor of the Exchequer Nigel Lawson, because he did not just cut tax—he also simplified it. I agree with Kenny Gibson. Does Scotland really need six tax bands? Only yesterday, my colleague Russell Findlay opened up a discussion on removal of the 21p rate, and I welcome that discussion. Under Nigel Lawson, Britain had just two bands. His approach was simple and efficient.

The SNP likes to compare Scotland with other nations around the world, so let us do that. Estonia has a flat rate of 20 per cent.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15048, in the name of Shona Robison, on fiscal sustainability. I invite members who wish to speak in the ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Shona Robison) SNP
Today’s debate comes at a timely moment, as we await the first budget of the new United Kingdom Government tomorrow. All eyes will be on the Chancellor of th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is absolutely right that, in the short term, we have to look at net inward migration. In the longer term, however, global population growth is slowing and...
Shona Robison SNP
Yes, I would. I will shortly come on to outline what we need to do to bring all that together in one place so that we can look at it collectively across all ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary is quite right to say that she has had to take emergency decisions. Does she now regret the fact that this debate did not take place mu...
Shona Robison SNP
That would not have made any difference to the fact that emergency controls had to be put in place because of the additional pressures from pay as a result o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Michael Marra to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. 15:01
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, in my role as deputy convener, in this very impor...
Shona Robison SNP
I will set this out in a lot more detail later but, in short, I mean to go from addressing the horizon that the MTFS looks at to addressing the “how”. The de...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You can have your time back.
Michael Marra Lab
It will certainly be welcome to see those details from the Government, and to hear how they apply to its broader policy agenda. I mentioned earlier that pub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Mr Marra. Before I call the next speaker, I encourage all members who are pushing to participate in the debate to check that they have pressed the...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
There is a ticking time bomb at the heart of Scotland’s finances. In fact, there are four: the tax system, public sector pay, the Scottish welfare system and...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
On that, will the member give way?
Craig Hoy Con
I will make some progress, then come back to the member, in a moment. If the SNP had done that, the minister would, this year alone, have had £600 million o...
Michelle Thomson SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Craig Hoy Con
We cannot grow the Scottish economy if we increase regulation or abruptly turn off the taps on North Sea oil and gas. We cannot dramatically expand the footp...
Michelle Thomson SNP
I thank the member for giving way. In some respects, his having carried on speaking has added weight to my point. I wonder what he thinks of Mark Logan’s re...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for the intervention, Mr Hoy.
Craig Hoy Con
If members saw the response of members on the Government’s front bench, they will have realised that they dealt with that intervention with the same level of...
Shona Robison SNP
rose—
Craig Hoy Con
I will not take an intervention, at the moment. Ireland has just two tax bands—20 per cent and 40 per cent. I accept that there are countries where the tax ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Craig Hoy Con
I will, in a second. However, ministers might not want to do that, because a simplified tax system is also a transparent one, because the smoke and mirrors ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I encourage members to press their intervention buttons.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Noted, Deputy Presiding Officer. The problem with what Mr Hoy has just set out is that he invokes countries with not just simpler tax systems but lower tax ...
Craig Hoy Con
Given that year-on-year increases in the social security budget have accompanied a reduction in the number of people who are available for work, and given th...
Shona Robison SNP
The return on the investment in the Scottish child payment is fewer children being in poverty, fewer who grow up into poverty and fewer who have their life c...
Craig Hoy Con
No. I am saying that we would grow the economy to a position in which, through time, those benefits would not be as necessary as they now are. We have to ask...
Shona Robison SNP
Will Craig Hoy give way on that point?