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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 October 2024

29 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Sustainability
Marra, Michael Lab North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, in my role as deputy convener, in this very important debate on fiscal sustainability, which has been an issue of long-standing interest to the committee.

A key recommendation following our pre-budget scrutiny last year was that the Scottish Government should schedule this very debate. We felt that a constructive discussion was needed about the fiscal impact of the demographic challenges that the Scottish Fiscal Commission projected in its first “Fiscal Sustainability Report”, which was published in March last year. Given the magnitude of the challenges ahead, we felt that it was important for the Parliament to debate those ideas across the political divide and to set out how we should respond to the long-term issues in an honest and constructive way. After all, any political party could be governing during the 50-year horizon that the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s projections cover.

However, unfortunately, the motion that has been lodged appears to limit somewhat the ability to build consensus, so I hope that the debate rises above it. Indeed, the political approach that it signals could be said to be illustrative of part of the problem.

The Scottish Fiscal Commission projected that Scotland’s population is expected to fall by roughly 400,000 over the next 50 years, driven principally by a low birth rate. The number of people aged 65 and over is projected to increase from 22 per cent in 2026-27 to 31 per cent by 2072-73. In contrast, the sizes of the working-age and under-16 populations are projected to fall.

Those changes in the population’s structure will have wide-ranging impacts. The size of the productive tax base that is needed to grow the economy and pay for public services will shrink. At the same time, demand for public services among a growing elderly population will increase, and additional pressures on health services will not be offset by fewer young people reducing the demand for school education. Spending on new Scottish social security payments that do not receive funding through the block grant adjustment, including the Scottish child payment, is expected—based on current policies—to increase from £600 million in 2027-28 to £1 billion 50 years later. Continuing with those different policy choices will mean that funding must be found from other portfolio areas in the Scottish budget.

The Scottish Fiscal Commission highlighted that, if public services in Scotland are to continue to be delivered as they are being delivered today, Scottish Government spending over the next 50 years will exceed the estimated funding that will be available by an average of 1.7 per cent a year, which is equivalent of £1.5 billion, at today’s prices. The Scottish Fiscal Commission has suggested that, to address that funding gap, the Scottish Government would have to consistently reduce spending or raise devolved taxes throughout the next 50 years.

In responding to the report, the Scottish Government said:

“A key element in ensuring future fiscal sustainability and that public services are appropriate to support the needs of Scotland’s changing population is our work on public service reform.”

It also pointed to the launch of a talent attraction and migration service and a new addressing depopulation action plan

“with a focus on resilience for local communities”.

It said that it would continue to press the UK Government to put in place

“immigration reforms ... to meet Scotland’s needs”,

as has been laid out by the cabinet secretary. The committee would certainly appreciate an update on those two schemes in the cabinet secretary’s closing remarks and as the debate progresses.

The SFC report was invaluable in informing our pre-budget scrutiny last year, and it continues to inform much of the work that the committee does on sustainability of public finances in Scotland. It gives a longer-term perspective to much of our committee work.

Last year, as part of our pre-budget scrutiny, we sought to establish how the Scottish Government balances its short and long-term financial planning and to identify any improvements that could be made in that area. The evidence that we gathered from businesses, academics, the public and voluntary sectors, think tanks and local government suggested that the Scottish Government is not carrying out enough strategic long-term financial planning and that it appears to be

“firefighting on a number of fronts”.

There is little evidence to suggest a shift away from a short-term approach to financial planning.

The committee notes from the Scottish Government’s motion that the Government plans to publish a five-year fiscal sustainable delivery plan. The cabinet secretary has said a little more about that, but I ask that she engage with the committee so that we understand the scope of what the delivery plan will contain and, crucially, how it will differ from the five-year medium-term financial strategy, given that the MTFS is, according to the budget process review group, intended to provide

“a means of focusing on the longer-term sustainability of Scotland’s public finances”.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15048, in the name of Shona Robison, on fiscal sustainability. I invite members who wish to speak in the ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Shona Robison) SNP
Today’s debate comes at a timely moment, as we await the first budget of the new United Kingdom Government tomorrow. All eyes will be on the Chancellor of th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is absolutely right that, in the short term, we have to look at net inward migration. In the longer term, however, global population growth is slowing and...
Shona Robison SNP
Yes, I would. I will shortly come on to outline what we need to do to bring all that together in one place so that we can look at it collectively across all ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary is quite right to say that she has had to take emergency decisions. Does she now regret the fact that this debate did not take place mu...
Shona Robison SNP
That would not have made any difference to the fact that emergency controls had to be put in place because of the additional pressures from pay as a result o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Michael Marra to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. 15:01
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, in my role as deputy convener, in this very impor...
Shona Robison SNP
I will set this out in a lot more detail later but, in short, I mean to go from addressing the horizon that the MTFS looks at to addressing the “how”. The de...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You can have your time back.
Michael Marra Lab
It will certainly be welcome to see those details from the Government, and to hear how they apply to its broader policy agenda. I mentioned earlier that pub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Mr Marra. Before I call the next speaker, I encourage all members who are pushing to participate in the debate to check that they have pressed the...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
There is a ticking time bomb at the heart of Scotland’s finances. In fact, there are four: the tax system, public sector pay, the Scottish welfare system and...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
On that, will the member give way?
Craig Hoy Con
I will make some progress, then come back to the member, in a moment. If the SNP had done that, the minister would, this year alone, have had £600 million o...
Michelle Thomson SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Craig Hoy Con
We cannot grow the Scottish economy if we increase regulation or abruptly turn off the taps on North Sea oil and gas. We cannot dramatically expand the footp...
Michelle Thomson SNP
I thank the member for giving way. In some respects, his having carried on speaking has added weight to my point. I wonder what he thinks of Mark Logan’s re...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for the intervention, Mr Hoy.
Craig Hoy Con
If members saw the response of members on the Government’s front bench, they will have realised that they dealt with that intervention with the same level of...
Shona Robison SNP
rose—
Craig Hoy Con
I will not take an intervention, at the moment. Ireland has just two tax bands—20 per cent and 40 per cent. I accept that there are countries where the tax ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Craig Hoy Con
I will, in a second. However, ministers might not want to do that, because a simplified tax system is also a transparent one, because the smoke and mirrors ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I encourage members to press their intervention buttons.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Noted, Deputy Presiding Officer. The problem with what Mr Hoy has just set out is that he invokes countries with not just simpler tax systems but lower tax ...
Craig Hoy Con
Given that year-on-year increases in the social security budget have accompanied a reduction in the number of people who are available for work, and given th...
Shona Robison SNP
The return on the investment in the Scottish child payment is fewer children being in poverty, fewer who grow up into poverty and fewer who have their life c...
Craig Hoy Con
No. I am saying that we would grow the economy to a position in which, through time, those benefits would not be as necessary as they now are. We have to ask...
Shona Robison SNP
Will Craig Hoy give way on that point?