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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 October 2024

29 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Sustainability

Today’s debate comes at a timely moment, as we await the first budget of the new United Kingdom Government tomorrow. All eyes will be on the Chancellor of the Exchequer as she sets out the steps that she will take to address the economic and fiscal challenges ahead, and on whether those will be sufficient to properly tackle fiscal sustainability. The Scottish Government has been clear about its expectations, and I reiterate those calls on the UK Government today. However, I am also clear that we need to take action here in Scotland over the short, medium and longer term, and it is vital that all members of the Parliament have the opportunity to engage in the debate.

The challenges that we face are significant and systemic and will stretch well beyond the current parliamentary session. In the immediate term, the latest medium-term financial strategy was clear that we face a significant and growing gap between funding and spending, as do the other devolved nations. Just last month, we took difficult steps to deliver further necessary savings to reach a balanced position in 2024-25—of course, we have reached such a position in every year of the 17 years for which we have been in government.

As we look ahead over the longer term, we will face broader strategic challenges. In March last year, the Scottish Fiscal Commission published its report on the Scottish Government’s long-term fiscal sustainability. I am very grateful for the SFC’s work. By bringing independent forecasts, insight and analysis to the Scottish Parliament, the commission plays an important role in ensuring that the public finances are fiscally sustainable.

Through a combination of low birth rates and a rapidly ageing population, Scotland’s demographic outlook is likely to change significantly over the coming decades. The population of Scotland is expected to fall by approximately 400,000 over the next 50 years, driven by the low birth rate. Recent birth rates in Scotland have been historically low, and it is assumed that they will remain at that level for the next 50 years. Those changes in the age structure have implications for the demand for public services, as there will be more demand for services that are used more by older people, such as health, and less demand for services that are used by younger people, such as education.

There are now also more deaths than births each year in Scotland, and the gap is expected to get wider each year. That reduced labour supply has a direct impact on our nation’s productivity and, through reduced tax revenues and lower economic growth, on our fiscal sustainability. The implications of that are stark under the devolution settlement. As the Fraser of Allander Institute has noted,

“the increased spending on public services will run ahead of the likely increases in the funding available to the Scottish Government”,

including from the block grant and devolved revenues.

However, those challenges are not unique; all four nations face the challenges of an ageing population and declining productivity. I hope that members would accept that while some of the tools to address those challenges sit with the Scottish Government, not all of them do.

In that context, it should be noted that there is some positive data regarding migration into Scotland. The latest figures from National Records of Scotland show that,

“In the year to mid 2023, Scotland’s population rose faster than at any time since the 1940s”.

NRS said that

“The main driver of population growth over the year was people moving to Scotland from abroad and other parts of the UK”,

with inward migration being highest for young adults. That demonstrates how control over migration policy could work to improve the fiscal outlook in the medium to longer term.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15048, in the name of Shona Robison, on fiscal sustainability. I invite members who wish to speak in the ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Shona Robison) SNP
Today’s debate comes at a timely moment, as we await the first budget of the new United Kingdom Government tomorrow. All eyes will be on the Chancellor of th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is absolutely right that, in the short term, we have to look at net inward migration. In the longer term, however, global population growth is slowing and...
Shona Robison SNP
Yes, I would. I will shortly come on to outline what we need to do to bring all that together in one place so that we can look at it collectively across all ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary is quite right to say that she has had to take emergency decisions. Does she now regret the fact that this debate did not take place mu...
Shona Robison SNP
That would not have made any difference to the fact that emergency controls had to be put in place because of the additional pressures from pay as a result o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Michael Marra to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. 15:01
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, in my role as deputy convener, in this very impor...
Shona Robison SNP
I will set this out in a lot more detail later but, in short, I mean to go from addressing the horizon that the MTFS looks at to addressing the “how”. The de...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You can have your time back.
Michael Marra Lab
It will certainly be welcome to see those details from the Government, and to hear how they apply to its broader policy agenda. I mentioned earlier that pub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Mr Marra. Before I call the next speaker, I encourage all members who are pushing to participate in the debate to check that they have pressed the...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
There is a ticking time bomb at the heart of Scotland’s finances. In fact, there are four: the tax system, public sector pay, the Scottish welfare system and...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
On that, will the member give way?
Craig Hoy Con
I will make some progress, then come back to the member, in a moment. If the SNP had done that, the minister would, this year alone, have had £600 million o...
Michelle Thomson SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Craig Hoy Con
We cannot grow the Scottish economy if we increase regulation or abruptly turn off the taps on North Sea oil and gas. We cannot dramatically expand the footp...
Michelle Thomson SNP
I thank the member for giving way. In some respects, his having carried on speaking has added weight to my point. I wonder what he thinks of Mark Logan’s re...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for the intervention, Mr Hoy.
Craig Hoy Con
If members saw the response of members on the Government’s front bench, they will have realised that they dealt with that intervention with the same level of...
Shona Robison SNP
rose—
Craig Hoy Con
I will not take an intervention, at the moment. Ireland has just two tax bands—20 per cent and 40 per cent. I accept that there are countries where the tax ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Craig Hoy Con
I will, in a second. However, ministers might not want to do that, because a simplified tax system is also a transparent one, because the smoke and mirrors ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I encourage members to press their intervention buttons.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Noted, Deputy Presiding Officer. The problem with what Mr Hoy has just set out is that he invokes countries with not just simpler tax systems but lower tax ...
Craig Hoy Con
Given that year-on-year increases in the social security budget have accompanied a reduction in the number of people who are available for work, and given th...
Shona Robison SNP
The return on the investment in the Scottish child payment is fewer children being in poverty, fewer who grow up into poverty and fewer who have their life c...
Craig Hoy Con
No. I am saying that we would grow the economy to a position in which, through time, those benefits would not be as necessary as they now are. We have to ask...
Shona Robison SNP
Will Craig Hoy give way on that point?