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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 September 2024

11 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)
Greer, Ross Green West Scotland Watch on SPTV

I should start by thanking the Conservatives, not just for using some of their time this afternoon to debate free school meals, but because the topics of their debates are a defence of green policies from the Bute house agreement era. I am delighted that, having spent so long trying to bring down the Bute house agreement, our Conservative colleagues are now the first to defend the legacy of the Greens in Government.

I will try to be collegiate, but I need to start by making the point that there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy in the Conservatives talking about ways in which we can tackle child poverty. The single biggest driver of child poverty in modern British history is the Conservative Party and the decisions that it has made, whether it be introducing the two-child cap, slashing universal credit or decimating public services. They cannot pick and choose when they want to lift children out of poverty and when they want to push more children into it without accusations of hypocrisy being flung at them.

On that point of collegiality and consensus, I want to talk about a visit in the previous parliamentary session that Oliver Mundell and I and some other colleagues made to multiple schools in Finland, which has had universal free school meals for some time. It was an experience that we all gained a great deal from. We saw almost every pupil sitting together and staying in school at lunch time for a healthy, warm, free meal. That did a whole range of things. It tackled inequality and helped those families who needed it and who would have struggled with paying for school meals. It improved attainment, because hungry children struggle to learn and behave. It eliminated stigma, because we know that, even with the best will in the world and with the most subtle systems of means testing and entitlement, children can find out who is and is not entitled to a free school meal. Even if they do not find out, those children who are entitled under our current system are worried about people—even members of staff—knowing that their family’s situation means that they are entitled. No one misses out under a universal system.

The Finland system also increases social cohesion, because, as we saw, all children eat together, including the children of families who can afford to pay for meals but who otherwise would have probably gone out of school at lunchtime. A very different culture is created as a result of universal provision. Finland is the gold standard. It is all the proof and all the evidence that we need that universal provision works.

It is outrageous that, here in Scotland and across the UK, we have children sitting in school hungry in one of the richest countries in the history of the planet. I am proud that, during the final budget agreement of the previous parliamentary session, just a few weeks before the pandemic brought a lot to a halt, the Scottish Greens managed to secure the Government’s agreement to immediately expand universal provision of free school meals to primary 4 and 5 and then move on to primary 6 and 7.

That was part of a wider package that we worked on together with colleagues in the SNP to do things such as cancel school meal debt. The Scottish Greens were the first to uncover the scale of school meal debt in Scotland. We did the research, we campaigned and then, with the support of the cabinet secretary and the then First Minister, Humza Yousaf, we secured funding to cancel that debt.

This afternoon’s debate is a bit odd, because we are debating something that we all agree on. The real question is about money. I agree with Liam Kerr that it is a question of priorities, although his priorities and mine are very different. I believe that the Greens have proposals for making the scheme financially affordable. For a start, there are ways of minimising costs using shared catering facilities and timetabling.

The problem that I have with the Government’s amendment is that it presents, quite rightly, the scale of austerity delivered by the Conservative Party—and not reversed by the Labour Party—as a challenge. However, it then makes out that that challenge makes austerity inevitable. It is not inevitable. There are a range of ways in which the Scottish Government can save money in-year in this financial year. On the capital side, we would freeze spending on trunk roads and motorway expansion. On the revenue side, we would scale back on tax breaks for shooting estates, for example. It is a question of political choice. I want to hear more about the choices that all colleagues would make this afternoon if we genuinely had a consensus on the priority of delivering the policy.

15:19  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14406, in the name of Liam Kerr, on free school meals for all primary pupils. I invite members who wish t...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
How times change. Do members remember the then First Minister promising in 2015 to completely close the attainment gap? Now, this Government simply aspires t...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Made a request to intervene.
Liam Kerr Con
I will take Monica Lennon’s intervention later. Last week, John Swinney confirmed in this Parliament that he was scrapping the SNP’s pledge to introduce uni...
Monica Lennon Lab
I welcome Liam Kerr’s motion and hope that the whole Parliament will back it today. All primary school pupils in Wales and in London have free school meals b...
Liam Kerr Con
I absolutely agree with that—it is a good point well made. The amendment is as predictable as it is shameful and, indeed, ignorant. On 5 September, in this ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Jenny Gilruth to speak to and move amendment S6M-14406.3. 15:04
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
Last night, I met the world schools debating champions at Bute house. Team Scotland was represented by Portobello high school, St Columba’s high school from ...
Liam Kerr Con
I share the cabinet secretary’s deep disappointment in the Scottish Government’s decisions, but can she help us to understand what representations she made t...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I made strong representations to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. If the member is interested, he can speak to her directly about that...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Pam Duncan-Glancy is attempting to make an intervention. I am conscious of time, and I would like to make progress, but I am going to name Pam Duncan-Glancy,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude, cabinet secretary.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
The reality is that austerity is a political choice. It matters not one iota whether it is red or blue. The result is less money for Scotland, less money for...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to open on behalf of Scottish Labour in the debate and to speak in support of the motion and the amendment in my name. I have said this before,...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Will Pam Duncan-Glancy give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I am sorry, I do not have time. Young people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds are five times more likely to be unemployed. Those are not just numbers...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I should start by thanking the Conservatives, not just for using some of their time this afternoon to debate free school meals, but because the topics of the...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
Marcus Rashford made a big impact on this whole debate in 2020 and before that. He has left a lasting legacy that has been credited, quite rightly, across th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Willie Rennie LD
It is not only our promise; it is the Government’s promise, and it is for the Government to deliver it. We deserve an answer from the Government today.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 15:23
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I declare an interest in that my eldest daughter is a teacher. She is head of guidance as well as being a physical education teacher. When I came into Parli...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Brian Whittle Con
I am afraid that I do not have time. Ploughing that furrow simply digs a deeper and deeper hole for our educators, heaping ever more responsibility on to ou...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I find myself back on the back benches, freed from the shackles of Government, able to say what I really mean and what I really want to say. However, you are...
Foysol Choudhury (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In 2021, the First Minister, then Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, said that free school meals were a landmark policy. Successive First Ministers ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills said that she wanted some context and to engage with the Opposition. Like Willie Rennie, I will take her back ...
Evelyn Tweed (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
I will, in a minute. I presume that that is why the SNP made the manifesto commitment that it did in 2021. It made that promise, which we are debating this ...