Committee
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee 28 May 2024
28 May 2024 · S6 · Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Item of business
Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I declare an interest as a practising national health service GP. I thank the minister for her remarks. This is not a debate on abortion. I firmly believe that women have a right to access healthcare without fear or intimidation. Amendment 38 seeks to remove section 10 of the bill. My position is that the definition of “protected premises” should not be capable of modification by secondary legislation. My concern is that, if there are changes to abortion service delivery that mean that new settings, such as pharmacies and GP surgeries, are approved to provide abortion services under the 1967 act, safe access zones could be established around them, which would take the extent and number of zones beyond what is reasonable and proportionate. Safe access zones could cover significantly larger areas than the initial 30 sites. I am thinking of GP surgeries and pharmacies, but we could even be talking about Amazon warehouses in the future. Although I acknowledge that the bill requires consultation with the provider, the operator and, where considered appropriate, the health board and local authority, I do not consider that there is sufficient scrutiny for such potentially wide-reaching consequences. The modification of the meaning of “protected premises” should happen only by way of primary legislation, with full parliamentary scrutiny. As the minister says, we do not know what abortion care will look like in the coming decades. Committee members will recall that the stage 1 report highlighted the likelihood of the future extension of the definition impacting on the rights to protest or undertake vigils that are set out in articles 9, 10 and 11 of the European convention on human rights. The stage 1 report recommended that any changes to the definition “should be subject to a further enhanced level of parliamentary scrutiny to that currently provided by the Bill.” The deletion of section 10 would remove the power of the Scottish ministers to amend the definition without introducing new primary legislation. In other words, there would be full parliamentary scrutiny. Remember, Governments can change, and a future Government might extend the definition, despite the minister saying right now that that is not the intention. I genuinely believe that such an extension would be a significant change, and significant change requires significant scrutiny.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Clare Haughey)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 17th meeting in 2024 of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. I have received apologies from Ruth Maguire, and James ...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 42, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, is in a group on its own.
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee for welcoming me. I note that I twice attended the First Minister’s working group on abortion service buffer zones. Amendment 42 would...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Scottish Labour’s position is that amendment 42 is a reasonable amendment, but we are not sure that it is particularly necessary to include it in that part o...
Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health (Jenni Minto)
SNP
Thank you, committee members, for your stage 1 consideration. This is a complex subject area and I am grateful for the sensitive and thoughtful way that you ...
Gillian Mackay (Central Scotland) (Green)
Green
Good morning. Like the minister, I offer my thanks to the committee for its work so far. I know that we will not all reach the same conclusions this morning,...
The Convener
SNP
I call Ms Hamilton to wind up.
Rachael Hamilton
Con
From the outset, I have been concerned that women have been put off accessing healthcare, which could be a danger to their health. That has been described to...
The Convener
SNP
The minister wishes to intervene.
Jenni Minto
SNP
I thank Ms Hamilton for that proposal. However, as I set out in my arguments for the committee to reject the amendment, I am concerned about the dubiety that...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
I thank the minister for that, but I am a bit disappointed that she will not work with me to get the words right so that they are legally competent. I will p...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 42 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Against Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haugh...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 5, Abstentions 2. Amendment 42 disagreed to. Section 1—Meaning of “protected premises”
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 6, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 7, 15, 16 and 35 to 38.
Jenni Minto
SNP
I will address amendments 6, 7, 15 and 16 quickly. The amendments are drafting improvements. Amendment 6 clarifies that “protected premises” may refer to a b...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning to the convener, the committee, the minister and Gillian Mackay. Most of the amendments that I lodged are probing amendments to find out where ...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
I declare an interest as a practising national health service GP. I thank the minister for her remarks. This is not a debate on abortion. I firmly believe t...
Carol Mochan
Lab
I thank the minister for her time and discussion on this area. Scottish Labour has taken a great deal of time to go over it because, as both Sandesh Gulhane ...
Gillian Mackay
Green
I am grateful to the minister for the amendments that she has lodged. In particular, I am fully supportive of the increased flexibility that amendment 36, if...
The Convener
SNP
I invite the minister to wind up.
Jenni Minto
SNP
I hope that members agree that an element of future proofing is needed, as Carol Mochan said, to allow the bill to continue to achieve its aims even if abort...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 8, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 9 to 14, 44, 45, 26 to 30, 47, 32, 48, 49, 40 and 41. I call the minister to move amendm...
Jenni Minto
SNP
Thank you, convener. I apologise. I will just get the right page in my file—my tome. The Scottish Government has lodged amendments 8 to 14, 26 to 30, 32, 40...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, everybody. The amendments in my name in the group are not controversial, so I hope that members will agree that they are useful in helping to ...
Gillian Mackay
Green
I will be brief because I support the amendments and am grateful for the improvements that they will make to the bill. I encourage members to vote for the am...
The Convener
SNP
I call the minister to wind up.
Jenni Minto
SNP
I welcome Emma Harper’s amendments, which are clearly aimed at ensuring that this important legislation can be understood by everyone who might be subject to...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 43, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, is in a group on its own. I call Rachael Hamilton to speak to and move amendment 43.
Rachael Hamilton
Con
Thank you. Amendment 43 would reduce the safe zone distance from 200m to 150m. In its stage 1 report, the committee questioned why the default distance of s...