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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 March 2024

19 Mar 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Fairlie, Jim SNP Perthshire South and Kinross-shire Watch on SPTV

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 61 would require that, as the licensing authority, NatureScot “must” grant a Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 proposed new section 16AA licence if it is satisfied that it is appropriate to do so. Although I understand the reasons for the amendment and am sympathetic to them, I have concerns about unintended consequences that that amendment might cause.

It is impossible to predict every circumstance that could arise in relation to licence applications. As such, it is important that NatureScot has discretion in assessing whether to grant a licence. That is especially important when we consider that a grouse shooting licence will be valid for five years. I fear that, by setting out in the bill that NatureScot “must” grant a licence, amendment 61 risks creating an expectation that gaining such a licence is simply a tick-box exercise. Although I appreciate that that is not the intention behind amendment 61, I remain concerned that it could remove the element of discretion that NatureScot must have in assessing the various factors, including the applicant’s background and compliance history. It would also impact on NatureScot’s ability to refuse a licence in a situation where it has good reason to do so.

For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 61, and I encourage members to vote against it.

On amendments 63 and 64, as NatureScot is a public body I would always expect it to give reasons for refusing a licence application. I am therefore happy to support Rachael Hamilton’s amendments 63 and 64, and I encourage members to vote for them.

Amendment 65 would require that notice of any modification, suspension or revocation of a licence must include the reasons for doing so, together with

“information about the process for appealing the decision”

to a sheriff under proposed new section 16AB of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.

Information about the appeals process against licensing decisions will be included in the licensing guidance that will be developed. I would expect that, before making an appeal to the sheriff, the applicant would first go through NatureScot’s internal appeals process. It is likely that a sheriff would require that the applicant first make an attempt to resolve the dispute outside the courts, by using that internal appeals process, before appealing to the sheriff. Amendment 65 overlooks the internal appeals process provided by NatureScot. For that reason, I cannot support amendment 65, and I encourage members to vote against it.

Colin Smyth’s amendments 66, 77 and 79 would allow for section 14(2A) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 to be disapplied in relation to land where a proposed new section 16AA licence has been modified, revoked or suspended. The effect of disapplying section 14(2A) of the 1981 act would be to prevent the release of non-native species such as pheasant or red-legged partridge for the purposes of shooting. Although I would be concerned if a grouse moor licence scheme proved not to be a deterrent to raptor persecution, I believe that it would not be a simple measure for grouse moor estates to change the quarry that they offer for sport shooting. I know that it does happen but, to put in context the matter that Colin Smyth has spoken about, I say that it is highly unusual.

Additionally, as grouse habitat is heather moorland, any sport shooting of other game species on moorland that is not covered by a Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 proposed new section 16AA licence runs the risk of flushing and shooting grouse. That would constitute an offence under section 1 of the 1981 act, with the possibility of vicarious liability also applying to the landowner or the land manager. Currently, the bill provides that both of those species can be added to the 1981 act proposed new section 16AA licence scheme by regulation in the future, if evidence were to support a link between management of those species and illegal killing of birds of prey. At present, however, we do not have the evidence base to link the release of those game birds to raptor persecution.

For those reasons, I cannot support the amendments, and I encourage members to vote against them.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
Our next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Group 1 is on glue traps. Amendment 38, in the name of Christine Grahame, is grouped with amendments 39, 40, 1, 41, 2, 3, 42, 4 to 6, 43, 44, 7 to 11, and 29...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The arguments that I will make in support of amendment 38 apply equally to amendment 39. Of the other amendments in the group, my intention is to reference i...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Could you please bring your remarks to a conclusion?
Christine Grahame SNP
I am bringing them to a conclusion. The point that I am making—which deserves to be re-emphasised—is that, until stage 3, there was no notion that we would...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Glue traps are barbaric, cruel and indiscriminate. Rats and mice, and sometimes non-target species, that are stuck in traps often remain there until the pers...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Colin Smyth Lab
I am sure that Edward Mountain will have an opportunity to speak in the debate, but I will still give way to him at this point.
Edward Mountain Con
I thank the member for giving way. Twice this afternoon I have heard non-target species being mentioned. In the environments that we are talking about—inside...
Colin Smyth Lab
Any animal crossing a glue trap will be caught. The reality is that the cruelty to rats and mice is absolutely clear for everyone to see. No matter who sets ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call the minister to speak to amendment 1 and other amendments in the group.
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie) SNP
I fully understand Ms Grahame’s reasons for lodging her amendments, but I am unable to support them. When introducing criminal offences, it is common to fra...
Christine Grahame SNP
How can someone have a reasonable excuse for doing something that is banned?
Jim Fairlie SNP
I will come on to that question as I get through my notes. Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is an offence to knowingly cause or permit someon...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Given that the minister and his predecessors had ample time to raise concerns around a total ban on glue traps, why was it that there was—as Colin Smyth said...
Jim Fairlie SNP
Clearly, Finlay Carson is setting the tone of the debate today. I will come on to why we have an enabling power. I turn to my amendments in the group. To pu...
Finlay Carson Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Jim Fairlie SNP
I will not, at the moment. The power sets out that the scheme can be used only to allow authorisations where no other method of rodent control is practicab...
Finlay Carson Con
I will try again. In the spirit of the debate and of passing legislation, will the minister lay out when he first heard the concerns of the British Pest Cont...
Jim Fairlie SNP
We lodged the amendments to allow the enabling power because we had listened. We heard that people were genuinely concerned. Your colleague, who is sitting b...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Always speak through the chair, please.
Jim Fairlie SNP
We listened to those concerns, and it would be prudent in the extreme to make sure that we have something in place, just in case there is an emergency. The...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Edward Mountain to speak to amendment 41 and other amendments in the group.
Edward Mountain Con
I start by saying that I fear that I might be on the other side of the debate on some of the subject matter from Christine Grahame and Colin Smyth. However, ...
Jim Fairlie SNP
Will the member give way?
Edward Mountain Con
I will give way to you, minister.
The Presiding Officer NPA
You should always speak through the chair.
Jim Fairlie SNP
Edward Mountain proposed a licensing scheme that could be given to any pest controller who does not have accreditation in this country, whereas we are propos...
Edward Mountain Con
Well, there we go. The minister is still not listening. I was talking about following parliamentary procedure and talking to people who have lodged amendment...
Christine Grahame SNP
Perhaps the factory cat that is there to keep the number of mice down is wandering about. Cats can get stuck in the traps. They are one example.