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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 April 2024

30 Apr 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives.

For the past few weeks, my inbox has been full of letters from constituents who have written to me—it will, of course, be the same for MSP colleagues—about their views on Gillian Mackay’s abortion clinic buffer zone bill. There have, of course, been opposing views, but it is important that everyone has the right to put their argument to their MSPs, who are elected to the Parliament. Such debates are never easy. They are emotive, they can be polarising, and they can easily diverge into debates about social conscience issues. However, I do not see that in this debate about abortion today, and I am pleased that that has been reflected across the chamber so far.

People have strong views on whether they support abortion, and everyone is, of course, entitled to their view. However, in my opinion, the bill is simply about women and creating safe access to healthcare where they do not feel intimidated or harassed. That is a reasonable ask, so I commend Gillian Mackay’s work in bringing forward a bill that aims to protect and support women.

We are not the first Parliament to look at such legislation. The United Kingdom Parliament voted in favour of establishing buffer zones in England and Wales that create perimeters within which certain activities cannot take place.

The Scottish Conservatives will support the general principles of the bill. However, I want to outline some concerns that were identified through the committee stage that still need work, should the bill move on to stage 2.

The harrowing accounts shared by women at the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee are a stark reminder that women fight every day for their rights to be upheld. Therefore, it is incumbent on MSPs to bring forward meaningful legislation that sets out clear aims and objectives, because, regardless of whether the principles are right, if the bill is unworkable it will not provide the protections that it aims to provide.

Gillian Mackay covered a number of the concerns that were raised in committee in her opening speech. One of the first concerns that I was going to raise was about the perimeters surrounding the buildings in question. However, I understand that she has addressed that element. Therefore, I will move on to other concerns, because policing, I think, will be more problematic in relation to the bill.

There is a long-standing argument in this country—one that I whole-heartedly support—that surrounds the rights of freedom of expression and religion. We have already mentioned silent prayers and where it is appropriate to perform them: whether that can be done at home or anywhere. The question that I still have, which will take a lot more exploration in order to come to a conclusion, is whether silent prayers need to happen outside a clinic, or whether people can gather in another location that would allow them to express themselves while giving women the ability to access healthcare. I fundamentally agree that religious freedom is a protected characteristic, but I am not entirely sure how we work around that in the bill that has been introduced.

Then there is the enforcement argument. More consideration is needed around how intimidation is defined to ensure that the bill is clear in its objectives. The largest stumbling block in the bill relates to how the law will be enforced. How will it be enforced equally? Will it be down to individual determination by officers? When will people know that they might be breaking the law? What happens if, as has already been raised, someone is expressing themselves in a home that is included in a marked zone? It will be incredibly difficult for police officers to determine breaches of the proposed bill, but that is something that we can tease out at stage 2 and stage 3, should the bill progress to those stages.

Returning to the argument on silent prayers, should that be an exemption or is it seen as intimidating? It is different from examples that we have heard that involved clear intimidation, where leaflets have been handed out and words have been exchanged. I would view that as intimidation, and it would be traumatic for clinicians, women and everyone who is accessing the clinic for whatever purpose. We need to remember that not everyone who is accessing the clinics is doing so for abortion services.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-13015, in the name of Gillian Mackay, on the Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill at sta...
Gillian Mackay (Central Scotland) (Green) Green
I am delighted to open the stage 1 debate on the general principles of the Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Health, Social ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful to Gillian Mackay for giving way and I thank her for her leadership on this very important and excellent bill. Ms Mackay was kind enough to mee...
Gillian Mackay Green
I will come to some of the things that Mr Cole-Hamilton and I discussed shortly. As, I hope, the chamber will understand, much of the report’s detail is st...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I apologise to Gillian Mackay for not being able to speak to her ahead of making this intervention. The stage 1 report was fascinating, and Ms Mackay has my ...
Gillian Mackay Green
Absolutely. I reassure Mr Doris that the number of sites that are currently protected represents those that are designated under the Abortion Act 1967. Any o...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Clare Haughey to speak on behalf of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. 14:47
Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) SNP
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests in that I hold a bank nurse contract with NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde. As convener of th...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member think that the police will be able to put such an exemption into practice with regard to what is silent prayer and what is somebody simply re...
Clare Haughey SNP
Mr Mason’s point reflects some of the discussions that the committee had and some of the evidence that we received, regarding silent prayer, both from people...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I advise members that we are very tight for time this afternoon, so members will have to accommodate any interventions in their speaking time allocations. ...
The Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health (Jenni Minto) SNP
It is my privilege to support the bill. I thank the committee for its consideration. The bill raises important issues and I appreciate its thorough and thoug...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
On the same topic that I raised with Gillian Mackay, which was the potential reduction of the size of the buffer zones, does the minister recognise that thos...
Jenni Minto SNP
I recognise what Mr Cole-Hamilton says, and I am happy to have further discussions with him on that. Today, because it is a source of particular concern fo...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
How will we police that?
Jenni Minto SNP
If Mr Gulhane will allow me, I am just coming on to that in my speech. I can whole-heartedly say that that is not the case, because, again, only the impact ...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. For the past few weeks, my inbox has been full of letters from constit...
Elena Whitham (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) SNP
Does Meghan Gallacher agree that women have been silently judged for hundreds of years in going about their daily life? The bill will seek to address that in...
Meghan Gallacher Con
Good points are raised by Elena Whitham. For me, it is about ensuring that women have safe access to those clinics. That is the fundamental principle of the ...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate for Scottish Labour, I thank the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for producing its stage 1 report, the clerks for assisting the...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Green Party group, I congratulate our colleague and friend Gillian Mackay on introducing the bill to the Parliament, and I congratulate all ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I congratulate Ms Mackay on her leadership on the subject—as I did in my intervention. I also thank action groups such as Back Off Scotland and other stakeho...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We now move to the open debate. 15:27
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
This is a very important debate, and I thank Gillian Mackay for all her work, as well as her office, her bill team and the Health, Social Care and Sport Comm...
Gillian Mackay Green
Will Rona Mackay reflect on the fact that, because of how healthcare is delivered in Scotland, a whole load more services are affected by protests in Scotlan...
Rona Mackay SNP
I completely agree with that. The unintended consequences of the protests are off the scale. The view reflected that of many individuals and organisations t...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I draw members’ attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests as I am a practising national health service general practitioner. It is importa...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Deputy Presiding Officer, I thank you for the opportunity to speak. For once, I mean that. I realise that my views and those of the people for whom I speak t...
Elena Whitham SNP
Will John Mason give way?
John Mason SNP
Let me just finish this point. I hope that it is possible to discuss the subject and bill in a calm and reasoned way, even though I accept that just discuss...