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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 09 May 2024

09 May 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Carson, Finlay Con Galloway and West Dumfries Watch on SPTV

We do not have any specifics about that, but everyone on the committee certainly understood that organised crime, gangs and so on could play a big part in the trafficking of dogs, particularly in my constituency of Galloway and West Dumfries, where we see dogs coming through Cairnryan.

The minister agreed that it is increasingly difficult for those who want to buy a dog to know whether a breeder is reputable. On the basis of evidence, the committee agreed that further measures are needed to focus on the demand rather than the supply of puppies and dogs.

I turn to the specifics of the bill. Part 1 seeks to introduce a code of practice for the acquisition of a dog. The main issue with that provision is that the Scottish Government already has the power to introduce a code of practice. Indeed, it has already introduced a code of practice on the welfare of dogs, albeit that it focuses on good practice around owning a dog rather than around the acquisition of a dog.

Views are mixed on whether a new stand-alone code is required or whether the existing code should be amended. Animal welfare organisations support a single amended code. The Dogs Trust told us that that would make “perfect sense”, and the Scottish SPCA argued that having a single code would make it easier to prove, in the event of any formal proceedings, that someone had known where to look for guidance.

However, Christine Grahame, felt that, if the bill’s provisions were included in the existing code, they would “get lost in translation”—earlier, she compared the code to “War and Peace”—and would be diluted and would not be as effective. The minister told us that it was time for the existing code to be refreshed but would not be drawn on whether the Scottish Government agreed with the idea of a separate, stand-alone code or whether Christine Grahame’s proposals would be incorporated in any refresh of the existing code.

It is fair to say that this was the one aspect of the bill on which there was less consensus among committee members, but the majority of members agreed that the proposed code should be stand-alone, concise and accessible.

We made a number of other recommendations in relation to part 1. We recommended that section 2 should be amended to remove the questions that the proposed code would require prospective dog owners to ask when acquiring a dog. The committee felt that it would be more appropriate to have the flexibility to change the questions in the future.

We recommended that the provision that the bill should come into effect within six months of royal assent should be amended, because we felt that that would not leave sufficient time for an effective consultation.

We recommended that the bill should apply to all dogs, not just pets. We were persuaded by Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, which argued that working dogs should share the same level of protection as pet dogs.

In addition, we recommended that the new code should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the same way as the existing code.

We agreed with the proposal for a certificate to confirm that parties have adhered to the code, although concerns were raised about the lack of enforcement provisions, and we agreed with the advisory approach, which seeks to educate, rather than penalise, dog owners. We agreed, too, that publicising the code would be fundamental to its success. Although we noted the minister’s view that the expected costs would be sufficient, we also noted the existence of a general view that publicity campaigns rarely fulfil their potential.

Part 2 seeks to introduce a registration scheme for puppy litters in situations in which a breeding licence is not already required. Animal welfare organisations supported that proposal, arguing that it would improve traceability and address the defects associated with microchipping. However, concerns were expressed about the proposal that the litter, rather than the breeder, would require to be registered, and the minister expressed concerns that registration in itself would not protect welfare and could provide “false legitimacy” to unscrupulous breeders.

Concerns were also raised about how much it would cost local authorities to implement a register, and although part 2 would not be implemented until a time when local authorities had more money, the committee felt that, without a clearer timetable, a register was not a workable solution. The minister was open to the suggestion that the Scottish Government should seek to amend the bill to remove that provision, and the committee agreed that an alternative approach would offer a more effective and quicker way of improving traceability for puppies and dogs.

15:22  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
We resume business. However, I will just say that this is follow-on business, so it is more than a bit disappointing that so many members were absent at the ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. As one of the culprits, I apologise. I welcome today’s debate and the progress that it represents. To members who ca...
Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
The member makes a very good case as to why new legislation is necessary. My understanding is that her bill would include a code. Could she say why she feels...
Christine Grahame SNP
Heaven forfend Dr Allan would offend me. I will come to that point. The evidence that was provided to the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee reflects the v...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you a little bit of extra time, Ms Grahame.
Christine Grahame SNP
Thank you very much. Part 2 seeks to establish a register of unlicensed litters, and I remain passionately committed to the policy behind that proposal. At ...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee, reflecting on our stage 1 inquiry and report on Christine Grahame’s member’s bill...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but there is a significant involvement of organised crime in dog breeding in Scotland and I wonder whether, during its inq...
Finlay Carson Con
We do not have any specifics about that, but everyone on the committee certainly understood that organised crime, gangs and so on could play a big part in th...
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie) SNP
I am someone who has had dogs in his life from the age of eight, when I got my first Labrador pup, called Pepper, until very recently—a period of just shy of...
Finlay Carson Con
I welcome Christine Grahame’s bill. The committee heard Gillian Martin, who was the minister at the time, say that she agreed with almost everything that Chr...
Jim Fairlie SNP
I cannot say why something has not been done in the past, but I can say that the Government takes the commitment seriously and that the code that Christine G...
Christine Grahame SNP
I have considered that. Like the minister, I appreciate that there are good people—such as farmers, the police and the owners of guide dogs for the blind—who...
Jim Fairlie SNP
The Scottish Government also agrees with the attention to detail in ensuring that sections of the bill are consistent with the Animal Welfare (Licensing of A...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill and on her concerted efforts during my time in Parliament to improve anim...
Christine Grahame SNP
I would resist being more breed specific, because that would start to clutter up the rather simple questions with regard to the breed. If someone considers t...
Maurice Golden Con
I think that that makes a lot of sense. It has been suggested that there could be type-specific information, too, but we could very quickly start to go down ...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I, too, put on record my recognition of Christine Grahame’s work on the welfare of dogs and on the illegal puppy trade. She has done a lot of work in the Par...
Christine Grahame SNP
I will go into more detail when I sum up, but the UK has come quite a distance on this. It has been suggested that, if there is a portal for all the individu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Ms Grant, I can give you time back for the intervention.
Rhoda Grant Lab
I am grateful for that intervention, as it highlights that the many companies that deal with microchip registers could come together and make them available ...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I think that five companies provide microchips across the United Kingdom. The problem is not so much collating the information from those microchips but the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Again, I can give you the time back, Ms Grant.
Rhoda Grant Lab
Yes, it does need more thought. That is not a criticism of Christine Grahame, because there is a limit to what any back-bench member of the Parliament can in...
Ariane Burgess (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Earlier this year, I was horrified to find out about a case of illegal and cruel puppy farming in Inverness, in my region. A couple had rented out their cott...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I remind members that those who are participating in the debate need to be in the chamber for both the opening and the closing speeches. We move to the open...
Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) SNP
I thank Christine Grahame for her work so far on the bill, which addresses issues that I know are very close to her heart. I also thank the committee for its...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I add my congratulations to Christine Grahame on introducing the bill. I also congratulate her on resisting the temptation to burst into song during her spee...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
As recently as February this year, 24 cockapoo and cavapoo puppies were discovered in a dire situation. They were confined in cardboard boxes under a lorry c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
Speak through the chair, please.