Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 24 April 2024
24 Apr 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Margaret Gribbon
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Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of the PIRC, in that it is staffed by a lot of ex-police officers. I do not think that that in itself is a reason to bar them, because I believe that experience in the context of complaints handling, and those talents and skills, can be tapped into. That leads me quite nicely on to section 8. Section 8 will move the responsibility for determining senior officers’ misconduct proceedings from the SPA to an independent panel, so there will be no role for the PIRC there. Therefore, the process will be completely independent, and I understand that it will be introduced through secondary legislation. That is to be welcomed, and it follows on from the Angiolini review’s recommendation that the SPA should have no substantive role in senior officer misconduct proceedings. That makes sense, because those senior officers are rubbing shoulders with the senior management team at the SPA, who are the people who would be responsible for disciplining them if complaints were made against them. However, the Angiolini review also recommended that a similar independent panel should be constituted for gross misconduct hearings for non-senior ranks, but the bill does not address that. The reason why she recommended that is that she took the view that all panels must be seen to have an impartial process. The legislation falls short on that, because it does not act on the review’s recommendations in relation to independent panels for all gross misconduct hearings for all ranks. The Scottish Government’s policy memorandum for the bill says that its rationale for that decision is that the issue of proximity bias does not apply to non-senior officers. I accept that it does not apply to them to the same extent as it does to senior officers. However, the review recommendations in that respect did not stem only from concerns about proximity bias. Angiolini stated that her recommendation would have resource implications and, at paragraph 12.61 on page 192 of her report, she said: “However, those costs would relate only to a relatively small number of gross misconduct hearings in any given year and are outweighed by the benefits of increased independence, transparency and public confidence.” Let us go back to the objectives of this bill, which are “to ensure that there are robust, clear and transparent mechanisms in place” for investigating complaints and allegations of misconduct against police officers. The bill does not do that. Section 8, which would apply to a tiny number of police officers, has the exact same limitations as section 5. However, we know that the vast majority of complaints are made against those who are in the ranks of ACC and below—mainly in constable ranks.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...
Margaret Gribbon
Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...
Margaret Gribbon
That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...
The Convener
SNP
I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...
The Convener
SNP
That is helpful, thank you.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...
Margaret Gribbon
I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...
Sharon Dowey
Con
One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...
The Convener
SNP
Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...
Sharon Dowey
Con
You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...
Margaret Gribbon
Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...
Margaret Gribbon
I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...
John Swinney
SNP
Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...
Margaret Gribbon
Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you very much.
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Russell Findlay
Con
Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Gribbon
Hi.
Russell Findlay
Con
You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...
Margaret Gribbon
Unfortunately not, no. You have—