Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 24 April 2024
24 Apr 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Margaret Gribbon
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Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do not think that it will make a massive amount of difference in practice. My understanding is that the oath given by all police officers should be inherent in what they do day to day. If that is codified, I do not suppose that it will do any harm, but, in the context of police complaints handling, I do not think that a duty of candour or a code of ethics on their own will be enough, I am afraid. I am concerned about the limitations of some aspects of the bill, in particular in sections 5, 8 and 13. I would like to share those concerns with the committee. As the committee will know, section 5 is supposed to widen the functions that can be conferred on the PIRC. That will be done through secondary legislation. That provision concerns key areas of senior officers’ misconduct procedures, including the statutory preliminary assessment function. Although anything that moves towards independent scrutiny is to be welcomed, we need to consider that the change will actually affect only senior officers, ranked ACC and above, so we are talking about a dozen or so officers—I think that there are 14 or 15. As far as I understand it, we have 16,500 full-time equivalent police officers in Scotland. Section 5 will not affect the overwhelming majority of complaints against the police. The Angiolini review said that the majority of complaints against the police were against officers at the rank of constable. I do not know whether the committee has up-to-date information on complaints, such as how many are dealt with each year, how many emanate from the public and how many come from the police. Essentially, for the overwhelming majority of complaints—99.9 per cent, if not 100 per cent—the status quo will remain. One of your witnesses, Mr Johnstone, referred to the procedures as “in-house investigation”, and that is essentially what it is. The status quo will remain and, for the vast majority of complaints, it will be a matter of the police investigating the police. Although any move towards independent scrutiny is welcome, we need to consider that the measures in sections 5 and 8 will cover a tiny number of police officers. I do not know what percentage of complaints over the past five years have been in relation to ACCs and above, but I imagine that it will be tiny. Section 5 will not touch the vast majority of complaints. As far as I understand it, the policy aspiration behind the bill is to ensure that “there are robust, clear and transparent mechanisms in place” for investigating allegations of misconduct against the police. In my view, the proposed legislation will not meet those objectives, unfortunately, given such a narrow definition of who section 5 applies to.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...
Margaret Gribbon
Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...
Margaret Gribbon
That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...
The Convener
SNP
I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...
The Convener
SNP
That is helpful, thank you.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...
Margaret Gribbon
I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...
Sharon Dowey
Con
One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...
The Convener
SNP
Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...
Sharon Dowey
Con
You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...
Margaret Gribbon
Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...
Margaret Gribbon
I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...
John Swinney
SNP
Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...
Margaret Gribbon
Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you very much.
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Russell Findlay
Con
Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Gribbon
Hi.
Russell Findlay
Con
You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...
Margaret Gribbon
Unfortunately not, no. You have—