Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 24 April 2024
24 Apr 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Margaret Gribbon
Watch on SPTV
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, the independent review group and the internal sex equality and tackling misogyny working group all recognised that problems exist in the police complaints handling procedure. For example, HMICS said that the misconduct processes were perceived to lack openness, transparency and fairness, and that the status quo, whereby Police Scotland reports on such matters to the Scottish Police Authority’s complaints and conduct committee, “provides limited assurance on the standards of integrity, ethics and values”. In its May 2023 report, the IRG looked at complaints primarily in the context of equality and diversity, which is where my experience lies. In relation to the police officers for whom I have acted, the complaints have been mainly what I call cop-on-cop complaints. The evidence that the committee heard last week was mainly about complaints by members of the public, in relation to which there is a remit for the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner. When it comes to complaints that are made by officers in the course of their duty, those complaints have been mainly—in the case of the officers for whom I have acted and currently act—misconduct complaints in relation to whistleblowing and alleged sexism and misogyny against fellow police officers. Therefore, they do not have the option of any form of independent scrutiny, unless they have the time and resources to take a complaint to an employment tribunal. Often, that is a last resort. For them, the PIRC is not a resort, so they are pretty much stuck with the professional standards department and the police investigating the police. What the IRG found is consistent with all the cases in which I have acted for police officers. There are several recurring themes in those cases, one of which is an absolute failure to address issues of misconduct involving discrimination. That was one of the findings of last year’s IRG report. The professional standards department plays a critical role in complaints handling—it is front and centre in determining how cases are assessed and investigated. That department is critical in setting the tone. The IRG found—and this is consistent with what clients I have represented have said—that the police were less prepared to address issues of misconduct where they involved discrimination. We are starting from a place where we know that there are major problems, because of what the independent reviews have told us. Last year, an internal Police Scotland working group, the sex equality and tackling misogyny group, carried out a survey and got 528 responses. Of the police officers the group surveyed, a staggering 81 per cent agreed that sexism and misogyny was an issue within policing; 86 per cent of female colleagues had either been subjected to or witnessed sexism and misogyny; more than 40 per cent of male colleagues had witnessed sexism and misogyny; and only around half of those surveyed thought that Police Scotland was tackling sexism and misogyny. We know that there is an issue, given cases such as those of Rhona Malone and Karen Harper, where we see the consequences of complaints not being handled properly. That particularly applies to the Rhona Malone case, which was tragic on so many levels: Rhona Malone was an experienced and talented firearms officer, who had so much to offer to policing, but her health was affected to such an extent that she had to retire. The cost to the public purse was £1.5 million. From the cases that I have dealt with and am currently dealing with on behalf of police officers, I am afraid to say that nothing that I have seen has convinced me that there has been sufficient change since the Rhona Malone judgment. It is inevitable that there is going to be another case or cases of that type. The complaints handling procedure is crucial to that. Rhona Malone’s complaints of sexism and misogyny were just not dealt with. The case was bold and overt, in that she had made a complaint that she had been victimised for raising concerns about a sexist email. The PSD tried to dissuade her from raising the complaint and, when she would not be dissuaded, it confirmed to her in writing that the complaint would be investigated. It was never investigated, however.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...
Margaret Gribbon
Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...
Margaret Gribbon
That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...
The Convener
SNP
I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...
The Convener
SNP
That is helpful, thank you.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...
Margaret Gribbon
I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...
Sharon Dowey
Con
One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...
The Convener
SNP
Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...
Sharon Dowey
Con
You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...
Margaret Gribbon
Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...
Margaret Gribbon
I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...
John Swinney
SNP
Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...
Margaret Gribbon
Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you very much.
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Russell Findlay
Con
Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Gribbon
Hi.
Russell Findlay
Con
You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...
Margaret Gribbon
Unfortunately not, no. You have—