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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2024

23 Apr 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Mackay, Rona SNP Strathkelvin and Bearsden Watch on SPTV

There is no doubt that it is a big bill, but we have taken a long time to scrutinise it and have heard a great deal of evidence. I agree that it is huge, but we have taken a lot of time over it.

Our committee, despite some differences of opinion—which are natural to have in relation to a bill of this stature—worked constructively from the start. That is why I am disappointed to hear that the Opposition parties intend to abstain on the vote today. What a missed opportunity.

On the proposal for a victims commissioner, we heard mixed evidence, and the committee was not convinced that the money could not be better spent on front-line services. However, the Government has highlighted that victim support organisations wish to see accountability and independent scrutiny of the system, and a time-limited period for assessment will be considered. I agree with that.

Trauma-informed practice cannot be a tick-box exercise. A requirement for it has to be embedded in the bill to deliver the pace of improvement that is needed, and that requirement must also apply to defence lawyers, who are currently excluded, for obvious reasons.

Abolition of the not proven verdict is, in my view and the committee’s view, essential to the reform of the justice system. It is outdated, it serves neither the accused nor the complainer, and it has to go. However, we did not hear convincing evidence that jury size or the size of majority should be changed. I am pleased that the Government will give consideration to the way forward at stage 2.

I whole-heartedly support the creation of a sexual offences court. The committee was concerned, however, that that would mean a downgrading of the seriousness of rape and sexual crimes, but I am reassured that that will not happen. Bringing sexual offences into a single forum with specialism in trauma-informed practice is long overdue, given that those crimes have doubled in the past 10 years. However, we believe that the same level of legal representation must apply, and I am pleased that the cabinet secretary will consider how that principle could be embedded at stage 2. Similar consideration will be given to where murder cases with a sexual element will be dealt with. The status of the new court is crucial, and I am glad that that issue will also be looked into at stage 2.

The conviction rate for rape is consistently lower than that for other crimes. Of course, that is partly due to the corroboration requirement, but a 24 per cent conviction rate for single rape case complainers is unacceptable. The Lord Advocate told the committee that, in order to improve the justice system for women, radical reform was needed. I accept that a rape trial pilot with a single judge, a judge with two lay members or a panel of judges is radical, but I believe that it is necessary if we are to improve the justice experience for women. Evaluation criteria and assessment of such a pilot are crucial, and that is the task of the current working group. The pilot would provide an invaluable opportunity to gather evidence on rape myths, which undoubtedly exist, as survivors know only too well. It would also create the opportunity to have written judgments from a judge, which would be a huge step forward for victims.

It is true that the committee was split on the issue of juryless trials. It is a bold proposal that I believe we should not shy away from if we truly believe in reform.

Today we vote on the general principles of the bill. The Government is committed to working with those who have concerns at stage 2. Over the past eight months, the committee has heard evidence from people who have been brave enough to speak out about their experiences. This is our chance to improve our ailing justice system and make it fit for the future. We would be failing in our duty to the people of Scotland if we did not pass the bill today.

I urge members to ask themselves whether our current system is working for those who find themselves on a traumatic justice journey and whether we could do better, and to vote to pass the general principles of the bill at decision time.

16:00  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12922, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill at ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I open the debate with my thanks to the Criminal Justice Committee for its stage 1 report on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. It r...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way and for the remarks that she has just placed on the record, because this is a significant issue. In he...
Angela Constance SNP
We will of course consider the debate in and around the jury majority with sensitivity and in depth, and we will look at all the relevant issues and engage w...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The cabinet secretary already knows my position on juryless trials, so I will not reprise that. However, I would like clarification that the proposal is for ...
Angela Constance SNP
I can give clarification to Ms Grahame that the pilot, whatever form it takes, is to look at rape and attempted rape cases. I have already given commitments ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I now call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:15
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am very pleased to speak in this afternoon’s debate on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. I extend the committee’s sincere thanks to the clerking te...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the Criminal Justice Committee team for their assistance and not least for the unseen work of the eternally patient researchers and clerks. Committee...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member accept an intervention?
Russell Findlay Con
I will.
Christine Grahame SNP
I thank the member for his tone and for his thoughtful contribution. There you are. When I was in practice as a civil practitioner many moons ago, that alr...
Russell Findlay Con
I thank the member for her intervention and have dialled down my flamboyance for her today. I agree. The member speaks to a point that is a recurring theme,...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I sincerely thank my colleagues on the Criminal Justice Committee and the committee clerks for what is an excellent report. The convener outlined its content...
Angela Constance SNP
I wonder whether Pauline McNeill is aware of the written evidence of the senators of the College of Justice, in which they said that, despite the new jury di...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge that, but I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees that some progress has been made, in that judges are now expected, in every case, to talk ab...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does Pauline McNeill believe that a 24 per cent conviction rate in single-charge rape cases is acceptable?
Pauline McNeill Lab
No, I do not. In case the member has misunderstood my point, the Government has said throughout that it is not specifically aiming to increase conviction rat...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Is there any time in hand?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes—there is a limited amount of time in hand.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will take an intervention from Christine Grahame.
Christine Grahame SNP
I am not on the committee, and I do not understand section 65(1), which says: “The Scottish Ministers may, by regulations, provide that trials on indictment...
Pauline McNeill Lab
That is one of the things that the Government has responded to—it will put the specified criteria into the bill. That is what I was trying to speak to, becau...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I greatly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee in the previous session and often find myself missing it, but I do not envy Audrey Nicoll and her colleagu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:54
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Getting the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill to this stage has been a marathon. As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I too th...
Russell Findlay Con
Does the member share the concerns that others have expressed about there being too much in one bill?
Rona Mackay SNP
There is no doubt that it is a big bill, but we have taken a long time to scrutinise it and have heard a great deal of evidence. I agree that it is huge, but...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank members for their valuable contributions thus far. It is fair to say that the bill has been on a bit of a journey, perhaps much like my own from the ...