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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 May 2024

15 May 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Teaching
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

Colleagues will appreciate that, as I am an Edinburgh MSP, I will not comment specifically on the situation in Glasgow.

I have heard the concerns that colleagues across the chamber have raised and I acknowledge the concerns that my constituents have expressed to me. However, I acknowledge, too, the reality of the challenge around the public finances and the fact that the Scottish Government is investing in maintaining teacher numbers with an additional £145.5 million that is designed to support local authorities to do so.

As the Scottish Government’s amendment notes, several local authorities

“maintained or increased their teacher numbers”

in the financial year 2022-23. For example, the City of Edinburgh Council has increased the number of teachers by 39, although I appreciate the concerns that constituents have expressed to me about how the Labour Party-led City of Edinburgh Council has provided a lot of those positions through the city as temporary contracts rather than permanent ones.

I noted what Sue Webber said in her speech about the city that we both represent. She spoke about pupil teacher ratios, and I have just talked about teacher numbers. The whole debate is in that space. Other colleagues have mentioned the report on additional support needs that the Education, Children and Young People Committee released today. During our evidence taking for that, we heard a lot about the challenges, the subtlety and the importance of considering whether teacher numbers or pupil teacher ratios are the most important aspect to improve learning.

In recent weeks, with the new First Minister—thanks to his leadership from the pole position—we have been thinking about a better political debate, and for our body politic we need to decide what the most important aspect is for improving children’s education. Is it more teachers or a better pupil teacher ratio? If we could decide collectively on one of those competing factors and take the party politics out of it, we would be able to debate from the same position.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-13196, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, on standing up for teaching. I invite members who wish to partic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to bring the debate to the chamber, because, as I have said before, education is a great leveller when it is done well. When teachers are suppor...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I welcome this afternoon’s debate during Labour Party business. As the First Minister set out last week, we are in new, although not uncharted, territory as ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary agree that it is strange that members of the teaching profession are expected to buy so much stuff for their classrooms to ensure ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I thank Martin Whitfield for his intervention. I do not think that the issues that he is raising are particularly new or nuanced. That has happened over the ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am happy to do so, although I am conscious of the time.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Is the cabinet secretary therefore concerned that the Government is missing many of its targets to recruit teachers in particularly important secondary schoo...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Yes, I am deeply concerned about that point. All of us in the chamber have a responsibility to ensure that we have more people coming into the teaching profe...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am conscious of the time, and there is much more that I would like to say. However, I have an ask of the Opposition today. Minority Government gives Opposi...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
We will vote for the Labour motion because, in a Scotland-wide context in which teacher numbers are down by more than 1,000 since the SNP came to power and t...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
The Greens will be supporting the Labour motion. I was very proud that, three years ago, when we entered Government, we came to an agreement with our SNP col...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
Just imagine what the world would have been like if Ross Greer had been in government for the past three years. Conditions in schools are really challenging...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Willie Rennie LD
Will those people face the dole queue as a result of that failure to plan adequately? I would like to hear from the cabinet secretary how on earth she will r...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Last year, I joined members of the Educational Institute of Scotland and Unison on picket lines in their campaign for fair pay. Not a single person wanted to...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I was in the classroom.
Colin Smyth Lab
The cabinet secretary was not personally in the Government, but I am sure that she voted for the Government. The Government needs to start listening and del...
Bill Kidd (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) SNP
I thank my committee colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy for bringing forward today’s debate. Her genuine commitment to our education system has always been clear. A...
Liam Kerr Con
I am listening to all the things that the member is trotting out. However, the Education, Children and Young People Committee published a report this morning...
Bill Kidd SNP
Like the cabinet secretary, I am all ears. Unfortunately, in my case, that is a physical characteristic. Anyway, I am carrying on saying what I am saying. W...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
Nicola Sturgeon said: “If you are not, as First Minister, prepared to put your neck on the line on the education of our young people then what are you prepa...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Over the past few months, my inbox has been inundated with emails from constituents who are concerned about the future of education in Glasgow under this Gov...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey) SNP
On a point of fact, the Scottish Government has funded in full the developing the young workforce arrangements for Glasgow on the same basis as the rest of t...
Paul Sweeney Lab
I am afraid that that is not the position that the GMB trade union has taken. I went to a meeting with young representatives of educational establishments in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The final speaker in the open debate will be Ben Macpherson. 15:43
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
Colleagues will appreciate that, as I am an Edinburgh MSP, I will not comment specifically on the situation in Glasgow. I have heard the concerns that colle...
Sue Webber Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I will take a brief one.