Committee
Social Justice and Social Security Committee 09 May 2024
09 May 2024 · S6 · Social Justice and Social Security Committee
Item of business
Pension Age Disability Payment
Adam Stachura
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The justification from Government might have been that people have bus passes, but can people use them? That relates to my response to Mr Mason’s question about where people live in the country. Are the buses accessible? Do they go where people need them to go? What other support do they require? This is about entitlement. It is not just a case of saying, “Here you are. Off you go and be quiet—you have a free bus pass.” It is an opt-in entitlement that many people apply for but that depends on their need for such a thing. Of course, it is not as simple as this, but the cost of a pass depends on how much it is used. We know from lots of other research on bus passes, for instance, that they are underused in many parts of the country and that routes are being cut. That might tie in with John Mason’s earlier point about car use not being deemed the best thing to promote. However, in terms of rural bus travel, routes are being cut because they are financially unsustainable, so a bus pass is worth nothing unless its holder can get a car into an urban area and then catch a bus or use a park and ride facility. There is therefore a difference between what is available on paper and the reality. There are similar arguments around saying to an older carer, “Okay, you’ve got a pension—that’s enough.” They might have worked for 40 or 50 years to receive their entitlement to what is, quite frankly, a modest amount of money from the state. Is it enough money to allow the state to say that unpaid carers are not entitled to extra support for the costs that they incur in caring for someone for a long time, with their household income being substantially impacted? In Scotland, we have measures that are good to have, but perhaps we should not be seen as saying, “Well, you’ve got this, and that’s enough.” If that is the ceiling of our aspiration, what is the point of the Scottish Parliament or of devolution? We are meant to be doing things differently, as we have done in changing various regimes, including social care operating differently in Scotland from what happens in other parts of the UK. There is a big opportunity to look at things differently and not just to say, “Right—it’s quite expensive, so we’re not going to look at it again.” If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Our next agenda item is an evidence session on the pension age disability payment, ahead of our consideration of the Disability Assistance for Older People (...
Marilyn Howard (Scottish Commission on Social Security)
Thank you very much for inviting me here. Before I answer that question specifically, it might be helpful to mention the role of the Scottish Commission on S...
The Convener
SNP
That is really helpful. As neither Adam Stachura nor Debbie Horne want to come in on that question, we will move on to the next theme, which is the mobility...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
There has been some debate around this question. To what extent has the Scottish Government provided a reasonable justification for not introducing a mobilit...
Debbie Horne (Independent Age)
Thank you for the opportunity to give evidence here today. Independent Age believes that a pension age disability payment should contain a mobility component...
John Mason
SNP
Can I press you on that? We would have to find the money now. Maybe the savings would come along in a few years, but we would have to look at this year’s bud...
Debbie Horne
That would be a decision for the Scottish Government.
John Mason
SNP
Are you not rather ducking out of that?
Debbie Horne
It is for the Scottish Government to prioritise its budget and where it wants to spend. If the Scottish Government has a commitment to human rights budgeting...
John Mason
SNP
If you would not suggest cuts, would you suggest tax increases?
Debbie Horne
No—I am saying that it is up to the Scottish Government to manage its budget and to decide. Independent Age will always advocate in the best interests of old...
John Mason
SNP
Mr Stachura, do you want to come in?
Adam Stachura (Age Scotland)
With regard to your first question around the justification for not including the mobility component, that has been a long-running conversation for organisat...
John Mason
SNP
Would there have been issues as to exactly what the money was going to be used for? A buggy is a positive thing that gets people to the shops and up and down...
Adam Stachura
It depends on where you live. The buggy might be helpful if you live, for example, in central Edinburgh—or maybe not, if you have to navigate potholes or hig...
John Mason
SNP
I get that. Ms Howard, do you want to say something about that?
Marilyn Howard
Mobility was an important issue in our scrutiny report, which contained an observation that justifications for not introducing a mobility component and any m...
John Mason
SNP
Is that your final word? You do not say whether you are satisfied or dissatisfied; you just say that it is tricky.
Marilyn Howard
It is not the Scottish Commission on Social Security’s role to make policy decisions. We look at the principles to understand the impact of particular decisi...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
SNP
I was struck by Debbie Horne’s comments about human rights-based budgeting. I get the point that she makes. I am the convener of the cross-party group on rar...
Debbie Horne
In Scotland, we have around 150,000 pensioners who are in poverty, and £20 million could obviously do a huge amount for those older people. Independent Age h...
Bob Doris
SNP
That is helpful. I wanted that on the record. It is about the art of the achievable rather than the aspirations. We are very well intentioned. I totally get ...
Adam Stachura
It would be similar. Although £20 million might seem like a lot of money, it is also not a lot of money.
Bob Doris
SNP
I point out that I do not have £20 million, Mr Stachura.
Adam Stachura
I know, but you talked about the art of the possible, Mr Doris. Is that the art of the possible or the ceiling of the possible? There are about 130,000 peopl...
Bob Doris
SNP
Those were really helpful comments from both witnesses. Thank you.
The Convener
SNP
I invite Jeremy Balfour to put his questions.
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning to you all, and thanks for coming today. We already mitigate some costs—for example, through free bus travel, through free personal care and, a...
Adam Stachura
The justification from Government might have been that people have bus passes, but can people use them? That relates to my response to Mr Mason’s question ab...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
Could I develop that point with Ms Horne? You said that you do not want the mobility component to come in immediately and that you want everyone to be transf...