Committee
Social Justice and Social Security Committee 09 May 2024
09 May 2024 · S6 · Social Justice and Social Security Committee
Item of business
Pension Age Disability Payment
Debbie Horne (Independent Age)
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Thank you for the opportunity to give evidence here today. Independent Age believes that a pension age disability payment should contain a mobility component. We understand the logic for the safe and secure transition and can see why, at the creation stage, the pension age disability payment does not contain that mobility component, but we believe that, going forward, we should be ambitious and really aspire to make sure that older people can access a mobility component within a pension age disability payment. Being able to participate in society is a fundamental right for older people, and disabled people have the right to independent living. The evidence and the need that we hear from older people, when it comes to the mobility component, is really clear. When we surveyed older people in December last year, an overwhelming majority of them supported the introduction of a mobility component. One older lady told us that she had just missed out on the mobility component because she had claimed attendance allowance and was just over the state pension age. She was using some of the money that she was receiving from attendance allowance to put by, because she recognised that, at some point in the future, she would need extra mobility aids and, potentially, a mobility scooter. We see that clear need among older people. From the survey that we did, we also know that around 75 per cent of older people who have a long-term health condition or a disability face increased costs, which makes it harder for them to get out of the house and meet friends and family. Therefore, although we appreciate the importance of the safe and secure transition, we believe that, in the longer term, there should be a review of the pension age disability payment, to look specifically at the mobility component. The cost is obviously a key barrier—we have seen the Scottish Government’s estimated figures—but we really need to look at it as an investment in people, in line with the social security principles, given that social security is an investment in the people of Scotland and it allows people to flourish. There is really clear evidence that a preventative investment in the people of Scotland, through a mobility component, would eventually enable a reduced spend. When we consider the impact of isolation and loneliness on health and social care, the knock-on effects of introducing a mobility component would result in savings further down the line for the Scottish Government.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Our next agenda item is an evidence session on the pension age disability payment, ahead of our consideration of the Disability Assistance for Older People (...
Marilyn Howard (Scottish Commission on Social Security)
Thank you very much for inviting me here. Before I answer that question specifically, it might be helpful to mention the role of the Scottish Commission on S...
The Convener
SNP
That is really helpful. As neither Adam Stachura nor Debbie Horne want to come in on that question, we will move on to the next theme, which is the mobility...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
There has been some debate around this question. To what extent has the Scottish Government provided a reasonable justification for not introducing a mobilit...
Debbie Horne (Independent Age)
Thank you for the opportunity to give evidence here today. Independent Age believes that a pension age disability payment should contain a mobility component...
John Mason
SNP
Can I press you on that? We would have to find the money now. Maybe the savings would come along in a few years, but we would have to look at this year’s bud...
Debbie Horne
That would be a decision for the Scottish Government.
John Mason
SNP
Are you not rather ducking out of that?
Debbie Horne
It is for the Scottish Government to prioritise its budget and where it wants to spend. If the Scottish Government has a commitment to human rights budgeting...
John Mason
SNP
If you would not suggest cuts, would you suggest tax increases?
Debbie Horne
No—I am saying that it is up to the Scottish Government to manage its budget and to decide. Independent Age will always advocate in the best interests of old...
John Mason
SNP
Mr Stachura, do you want to come in?
Adam Stachura (Age Scotland)
With regard to your first question around the justification for not including the mobility component, that has been a long-running conversation for organisat...
John Mason
SNP
Would there have been issues as to exactly what the money was going to be used for? A buggy is a positive thing that gets people to the shops and up and down...
Adam Stachura
It depends on where you live. The buggy might be helpful if you live, for example, in central Edinburgh—or maybe not, if you have to navigate potholes or hig...
John Mason
SNP
I get that. Ms Howard, do you want to say something about that?
Marilyn Howard
Mobility was an important issue in our scrutiny report, which contained an observation that justifications for not introducing a mobility component and any m...
John Mason
SNP
Is that your final word? You do not say whether you are satisfied or dissatisfied; you just say that it is tricky.
Marilyn Howard
It is not the Scottish Commission on Social Security’s role to make policy decisions. We look at the principles to understand the impact of particular decisi...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
SNP
I was struck by Debbie Horne’s comments about human rights-based budgeting. I get the point that she makes. I am the convener of the cross-party group on rar...
Debbie Horne
In Scotland, we have around 150,000 pensioners who are in poverty, and £20 million could obviously do a huge amount for those older people. Independent Age h...
Bob Doris
SNP
That is helpful. I wanted that on the record. It is about the art of the achievable rather than the aspirations. We are very well intentioned. I totally get ...
Adam Stachura
It would be similar. Although £20 million might seem like a lot of money, it is also not a lot of money.
Bob Doris
SNP
I point out that I do not have £20 million, Mr Stachura.
Adam Stachura
I know, but you talked about the art of the possible, Mr Doris. Is that the art of the possible or the ceiling of the possible? There are about 130,000 peopl...
Bob Doris
SNP
Those were really helpful comments from both witnesses. Thank you.
The Convener
SNP
I invite Jeremy Balfour to put his questions.
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning to you all, and thanks for coming today. We already mitigate some costs—for example, through free bus travel, through free personal care and, a...
Adam Stachura
The justification from Government might have been that people have bus passes, but can people use them? That relates to my response to Mr Mason’s question ab...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
Could I develop that point with Ms Horne? You said that you do not want the mobility component to come in immediately and that you want everyone to be transf...