Committee
Finance Committee, 24 Feb 2004
24 Feb 2004 · S2 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Fire Sprinklers in Residential Premises (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
My understanding is that, in applying to a local authority for a licence for an HMO, owners must comply with certain fire regulations and that the local authority will take the advice of the local fire service. On the Edinburgh examples that were cited, I understand that, in order for the facilities to comply with the fire regulations and depending on the number of rooms in the property, fire escapes or stairwells of the American type would have to be installed, probably at the back of the building, in order for people to be able to escape. Increasingly, local authorities are saying that such stipulations must be adhered to. However, they are prepared to make a trade-off: if a sprinkler system is installed, the authorities will not force the owner then to install such a staircase. Rather than pointing to stipulations under the licence, authorities are telling people that they must comply with fire regulations, which means having to install a staircase. However, if the owner installs a sprinkler system, the authorities will be prepared to relax the regulations, because the sprinkler system would provide what the authorities believe to be the necessary level of safety. It has been pointed out to me that, in some local authorities, an HMO comprising seven or eight rooms can receive a licence, even if it does not have sufficient fire safety provision by way of an escape ladder or extra staircase. The owner might receive a licence allowing them to use only half the building—they may be allowed to use only three or four of the rooms. It is in the interests of the owner to determine what they need to do in order to use the rest of the property. They are being told that, if they do not put in a stairwell, a sprinkler system would cover the necessary safety provisions.Rather than focusing on a stipulation in the licence as such, local authorities are increasingly prepared to relax the building regulations if owners are prepared to install sprinkler systems. That is happening not just in HMOs, but in private properties, including complexes such as retirement flats. The problem is that those properties are particularly vulnerable in the event of a fire, so the question is about driving up the standards in such properties, many of which are occupied by vulnerable residents. The best way of doing that, I believe, is through a change in the building regulations.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
The second item on our agenda is further consideration of the Fire Sprinklers in Residential Premises (Scotland) Bill. We have with us Michael Matheson, who ...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Consultation on my bill started in September 2001, at which point I actively sought information on which types of properties should have sprinkler systems in...
The Convener:
Lab
Before I invite members to ask questions, I remind them that the policy issues to do with the bill will be dealt with by the Communities Committee, which is ...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
Michael Matheson said that he did not want to get caught up in the figures, but that is what we do in the Finance Committee. I find the policy issues interes...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
They are Scotland-wide figures. As I said before, we got caught up in a debate over the figures. The fire statistics do not break down to cover specific type...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
If the statistics are not disaggregated, I find it difficult to understand how they are useful in demonstrating the cost-effectiveness of the bill and the co...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I have some statistics here: the number of deaths that occurred in Scotland as a result of fire in 2002-03 was 84 and 30 of those individuals were over the a...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
Being over 60 nowadays does not necessarily mean that one will be in sheltered housing. Sheltered housing is now for elderly people who are frail. It is unli...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The problem is that the national statistics do not break down further. All I can do is to refer you to the 1998 report that was published by the Department o...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
I have one more question, although it strays slightly from the subject. If that is the case, why does the bill not cover residential and nursing homes for th...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
My original proposal was to include care home facilities. During the consultation, I received evidence from care homes that, because the new care regulations...
The Convener:
Lab
Do we need to have a legislative mechanism in the bill to cover care homes or could the issue be dealt with through the care home standards under the Regulat...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I am not too sure about the care home standards, but the fire safety regulations that, in my understanding, apply to care home establishments are based on th...
Dr Murray:
Lab
Everybody is sympathetic to attempts to improve community safety and to protect firefighters and others who have to cope with fires. You gave us a lot of sta...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The provisions for smoke detectors were introduced nearly 15 years ago. Sadly, in that period, the rate of fire deaths in Scotland has not dropped significan...
Dr Murray:
Lab
That is helpful. You mentioned the sad fact that smoke detectors in properties often do not work and do not provide protection. Does the research that you ha...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
One of the biggest difficulties that I have had with the bill is people's perception of sprinklers. I am sure that we have all walked through shopping centre...
John Swinburne:
SSCUP
I have normally found knee-jerk reactions in politics, but Michael Matheson was taking action before everybody else had their knee-jerk reactions to the late...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The bill could make provision in relation to care home facilities, but it does not do that. However, I can answer your question in relation to sheltered hous...
The Convener:
Lab
The definition of sheltered housing is crucial to identifying the bill's costs. Is your definition in line with that in the Building (Scotland) Act 2003?
Michael Matheson:
SNP
Building regulations contain no definition of sheltered housing. I noticed that evidence to the committee suggested that the definition was too wide. The def...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
I assume that you have read the Official Report of our earlier evidence session on the bill, during which Fergus Ewing asked John Blackwood of the Scottish A...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
No. I must meet several organisations as a result of the evidence that they have submitted. The Scottish Association of Landlords is one such organisation; a...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Mr Blackwood said that the Scottish Association of Landlords' figure of between £5,000 and £7,000 was based on "actual costs for systems that have already be...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
May I clarify some of the confusion around the issue? The financial memorandum that I provided to the committee uses a figure of £1,500, which was provided t...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
The difficulty is that witnesses provided evidence on the record—albeit anecdotal evidence of a couple of examples, which came from phone calls to a number o...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I am more than happy to do that. I can also provide the committee with a table of figures that the researchers at the ODPM have identified as the average cos...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
In his evidence, Mr Blackwood said that the Scottish Association of Landlords was not in favour of a blanket licensing condition. I asked him whether any loc...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
My understanding is that, in applying to a local authority for a licence for an HMO, owners must comply with certain fire regulations and that the local auth...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Those regulations satisfy the fire brigades and you have recognised that it would not be desirable to overburden agencies with additional regulations, yet th...