Committee
Finance Committee, 24 Feb 2004
24 Feb 2004 · S2 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Fire Sprinklers in Residential Premises (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
The provisions for smoke detectors were introduced nearly 15 years ago. Sadly, in that period, the rate of fire deaths in Scotland has not dropped significantly. The fire service has carried out research that demonstrates that in around 60 per cent of the fires that it attends, smoke detectors are in place but do not operate. I will check that figure for the committee. Smoke detectors do not provide the level of safety that the fire service believes sprinkler systems would provide. When a smoke alarm goes off, the individual involved still has to be able to evacuate the premises. If the person has difficulty evacuating, their safety will be compromised.The Scottish Association of Landlords raised the issue of mist systems with the committee. From a technical point of view, mist systems are somewhat different from sprinkler systems. First, as there are no European or British standards for mist systems, they have not been through a rigorous process to ensure that they are effective. Secondly, a mist system operates from a water tank, which must provide a water supply for around four minutes. A sprinkler system operates from the water mains system and must be able to supply water continuously.After it was suggested to the committee that mist systems are cheaper and easier to install, I contacted one of the biggest fire safety companies in Scotland, which installs mist systems. That company said that mist systems are not simple, and certainly not cheaper, to install and that it is not inclined to use mist systems because no national or international standards exist for them. Sprinkler systems have had European standards for some time and a draft British standard, which arose from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister's research on the effectiveness of sprinkler systems, is due to be finalised this year. The international experience is that sprinkler systems reduce fire death rates or increase survival rates in fires by up to 85 per cent. Detailed research has been carried out into sprinkler systems, but not into mist systems. Given that mist systems require a tank, they can involve more work than systems that simply run off the mains.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
The second item on our agenda is further consideration of the Fire Sprinklers in Residential Premises (Scotland) Bill. We have with us Michael Matheson, who ...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Consultation on my bill started in September 2001, at which point I actively sought information on which types of properties should have sprinkler systems in...
The Convener:
Lab
Before I invite members to ask questions, I remind them that the policy issues to do with the bill will be dealt with by the Communities Committee, which is ...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
Michael Matheson said that he did not want to get caught up in the figures, but that is what we do in the Finance Committee. I find the policy issues interes...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
They are Scotland-wide figures. As I said before, we got caught up in a debate over the figures. The fire statistics do not break down to cover specific type...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
If the statistics are not disaggregated, I find it difficult to understand how they are useful in demonstrating the cost-effectiveness of the bill and the co...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I have some statistics here: the number of deaths that occurred in Scotland as a result of fire in 2002-03 was 84 and 30 of those individuals were over the a...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
Being over 60 nowadays does not necessarily mean that one will be in sheltered housing. Sheltered housing is now for elderly people who are frail. It is unli...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The problem is that the national statistics do not break down further. All I can do is to refer you to the 1998 report that was published by the Department o...
Kate Maclean:
Lab
I have one more question, although it strays slightly from the subject. If that is the case, why does the bill not cover residential and nursing homes for th...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
My original proposal was to include care home facilities. During the consultation, I received evidence from care homes that, because the new care regulations...
The Convener:
Lab
Do we need to have a legislative mechanism in the bill to cover care homes or could the issue be dealt with through the care home standards under the Regulat...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I am not too sure about the care home standards, but the fire safety regulations that, in my understanding, apply to care home establishments are based on th...
Dr Murray:
Lab
Everybody is sympathetic to attempts to improve community safety and to protect firefighters and others who have to cope with fires. You gave us a lot of sta...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The provisions for smoke detectors were introduced nearly 15 years ago. Sadly, in that period, the rate of fire deaths in Scotland has not dropped significan...
Dr Murray:
Lab
That is helpful. You mentioned the sad fact that smoke detectors in properties often do not work and do not provide protection. Does the research that you ha...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
One of the biggest difficulties that I have had with the bill is people's perception of sprinklers. I am sure that we have all walked through shopping centre...
John Swinburne:
SSCUP
I have normally found knee-jerk reactions in politics, but Michael Matheson was taking action before everybody else had their knee-jerk reactions to the late...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
The bill could make provision in relation to care home facilities, but it does not do that. However, I can answer your question in relation to sheltered hous...
The Convener:
Lab
The definition of sheltered housing is crucial to identifying the bill's costs. Is your definition in line with that in the Building (Scotland) Act 2003?
Michael Matheson:
SNP
Building regulations contain no definition of sheltered housing. I noticed that evidence to the committee suggested that the definition was too wide. The def...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
I assume that you have read the Official Report of our earlier evidence session on the bill, during which Fergus Ewing asked John Blackwood of the Scottish A...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
No. I must meet several organisations as a result of the evidence that they have submitted. The Scottish Association of Landlords is one such organisation; a...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Mr Blackwood said that the Scottish Association of Landlords' figure of between £5,000 and £7,000 was based on "actual costs for systems that have already be...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
May I clarify some of the confusion around the issue? The financial memorandum that I provided to the committee uses a figure of £1,500, which was provided t...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
The difficulty is that witnesses provided evidence on the record—albeit anecdotal evidence of a couple of examples, which came from phone calls to a number o...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
I am more than happy to do that. I can also provide the committee with a table of figures that the researchers at the ODPM have identified as the average cos...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
In his evidence, Mr Blackwood said that the Scottish Association of Landlords was not in favour of a blanket licensing condition. I asked him whether any loc...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
My understanding is that, in applying to a local authority for a licence for an HMO, owners must comply with certain fire regulations and that the local auth...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Those regulations satisfy the fire brigades and you have recognised that it would not be desirable to overburden agencies with additional regulations, yet th...