Hansard

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP

Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...

Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con

I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...

The Convener SNP

Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...

Margaret Gribbon

Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...

The Convener SNP

Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?

Margaret Gribbon

Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...

The Convener SNP

Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...

Margaret Gribbon

That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...

The Convener SNP

I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...

Margaret Gribbon

Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...

The Convener SNP

That is helpful, thank you.

Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con

Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...

Margaret Gribbon

I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...

Sharon Dowey Con

One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...

The Convener SNP

Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...

Margaret Gribbon

Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...

Sharon Dowey Con

You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...

Margaret Gribbon

Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...

John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP

Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...

Margaret Gribbon

I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...

John Swinney SNP

Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...

Margaret Gribbon

Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...

John Swinney SNP

Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...

Margaret Gribbon

Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...

John Swinney SNP

Thank you very much.

The Convener SNP

I will bring in Russell Findlay.

Russell Findlay Con

Hello, Margaret.

Margaret Gribbon

Hi.

Russell Findlay Con

You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...

Margaret Gribbon

Unfortunately not, no. You have—