Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 24 April 2024
24 Apr 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Margaret Gribbon
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I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of their complaint, so the PIRC did not have oversight there. Largely, my experience has related to misconduct complaints dealt with under the Police Service of Scotland (Conduct) Regulations 2014, which are for assistant chief constables and below. More often than not, a misconduct complaint will fall under the remit of the PSD rather than HR, which deals with more grievance-type complaints. However, there can sometimes be an overlap. My experience of what is called people and development in Police Scotland, which is HR, largely relates to the Rhona Malone case. It simply refused to deal with her complaint as a grievance. That was clearly a concern. However, I have a lot more experience of the PSD, and one of the recurring themes in the cases that I deal with is the role of the PSD. I will give a stark example of that. I am currently dealing with a case for a detective inspector that relates to the inconsistent approach that they say the PSD takes. There is evidence that the PSD is not handling matters impartially and independently in some cases, and there is certainly evidence that suggests that there is outside interference in the decisions that it takes. In the case that I am currently dealing with, my client has alleged inconsistency of treatment. She says that she has called out sexism and misogyny against herself and other female officers in the area of policing that she works in, and in police officers’ attitudes towards female complainers of sex crimes. She made those complaints and she is now the subject of a PSD investigation for what she says are trivial misdemeanours that do not warrant a PSD investigation. One example of inconsistency that she gave involves an officer whom she supervises. She and a sergeant have made complaints. They believe that that officer exhibits sexist and misogynistic conduct. The officer was guilty of off-duty criminal conduct. There are no ambiguities about that; the British Transport Police was involved. The officer, who was intoxicated, abused a female transport worker and most of the incident was recorded on a body cam. There was a preliminary assessment by the PSD, which can determine whether a matter falls into the category of gross misconduct, misconduct or an improvement action—colloquially, that is a slap on the wrist, if you like. An improvement action means that the matter is not subject to any investigation and does not go any further. The officer was guilty of off-duty criminal conduct and the professional standards department determined that that warranted only an improvement action. To me, that is inexplicable. You have a police officer who is guilty of an off-duty crime—he abused and alarmed a female transport worker. That behaviour was consistent with the behaviour that my client—a detective inspector—and a female sergeant spoke about in relation to this officer. Despite all that, he was issued with only an improvement action. That is just completely inexplicable. 10:30
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...
Margaret Gribbon
Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...
Margaret Gribbon
That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...
The Convener
SNP
I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...
The Convener
SNP
That is helpful, thank you.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...
Margaret Gribbon
I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...
Sharon Dowey
Con
One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...
The Convener
SNP
Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...
Sharon Dowey
Con
You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...
Margaret Gribbon
Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...
Margaret Gribbon
I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...
John Swinney
SNP
Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...
Margaret Gribbon
Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you very much.
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Russell Findlay
Con
Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Gribbon
Hi.
Russell Findlay
Con
You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...
Margaret Gribbon
Unfortunately not, no. You have—