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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2024

23 Apr 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I thank members for their valuable contributions thus far. It is fair to say that the bill has been on a bit of a journey, perhaps much like my own from the front to the back benches over the past year and a bit. It is one of the largest pieces of legislation that I have come across in this Parliament, in terms not just of its length but its content and perhaps even its controversy. Many of its proposals have split opinion. Thank goodness that this is a stage 1 debate. Of course, members will do what they have to as we go through the process.

The fundamental point is correct: the bill is simply too big. It is trying to do too much in one place. It has also fallen into the trap that we often see in this place of a bill that has good intentions and contains many worthwhile proposals but also has major and controversial changes buried within it. That forces members to make a black-and-white decision at the end of the process on whether we support all of it or none of it. That is regrettable, and I think that many members will find ourselves in that situation in the months to come.

Not since 1707 has such a vast statement of intent about the future of Scots law been so publicly made. I commend some of the proposals in the bill. Many of them echo my proposals in the victims bill that I consulted on almost two years before the Government produced its proposals.

However, there are things in the bill that make me and others quite nervous, and I will focus on those. Some of the bill’s proposals raised judicial eyebrows. I do not think that they can be ignored, and much of that is well reflected in the excellent committee report. We have talked a little about the issue of juryless trials. It is fair to say that, if we were having this debate back in 1680, in the first iteration of this Parliament, people such as Sir George Mackenzie, the then Lord Advocate, would be relishing the conversation. Scots law is evolving—it has not stayed still over the centuries. It is right that we debate reform, but it is also right that that debate is an academic and informed one. I am afraid that the very short debates that we are prone to having in this Parliament is where we let legislation down. The bill needs hours and hours of scrutiny in this chamber.

Last year, when I had the justice spokesperson role, I raised concerns from the industry. I raised them not to be difficult, but because that is what people said to me when I consulted stakeholders. I said back then that pretty much every defence lawyer in Scotland would boycott a pilot for juryless trials, and that transpired to be the case. I also said back then—this is an important point—that, if the accused has no solicitor, it begs the question how on earth the trial could even be a trial, never mind a fair one. It is that issue of fairness that sits at the heart of my comments today.

It is not just me and not just defence solicitors, who of course are standing up for their clients, who have concerns, but Lady Hale, Lord Uist, Lord Sumption, the Law Society of Scotland, the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association and even the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office. They gave what I thought were very stark warnings to the committee and have been vocal about their concerns. I urge the Scottish Government to proceed with caution and to listen to those learned voices as it follows through on any changes such as the introduction of juryless trials.

There has been talk about comparisons with European systems, but let us not forget that Scotland has a fundamentally different legal system. We have an adversarial system not an inquisitorial one, and because of that important distinction, we cannot make comparisons of that nature.

Part 4 of the bill is the big part that is controversial. The argument against removing the archaic not proven verdict is an important one. Many of us have campaigned for the abolishment of that verdict for many years, and it has featured in our respective manifestos. It has been a key component of my proposals, and I am pleased to see it reflected in the Government’s proposals.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12922, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill at ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I open the debate with my thanks to the Criminal Justice Committee for its stage 1 report on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. It r...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way and for the remarks that she has just placed on the record, because this is a significant issue. In he...
Angela Constance SNP
We will of course consider the debate in and around the jury majority with sensitivity and in depth, and we will look at all the relevant issues and engage w...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The cabinet secretary already knows my position on juryless trials, so I will not reprise that. However, I would like clarification that the proposal is for ...
Angela Constance SNP
I can give clarification to Ms Grahame that the pilot, whatever form it takes, is to look at rape and attempted rape cases. I have already given commitments ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I now call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:15
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am very pleased to speak in this afternoon’s debate on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. I extend the committee’s sincere thanks to the clerking te...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the Criminal Justice Committee team for their assistance and not least for the unseen work of the eternally patient researchers and clerks. Committee...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member accept an intervention?
Russell Findlay Con
I will.
Christine Grahame SNP
I thank the member for his tone and for his thoughtful contribution. There you are. When I was in practice as a civil practitioner many moons ago, that alr...
Russell Findlay Con
I thank the member for her intervention and have dialled down my flamboyance for her today. I agree. The member speaks to a point that is a recurring theme,...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I sincerely thank my colleagues on the Criminal Justice Committee and the committee clerks for what is an excellent report. The convener outlined its content...
Angela Constance SNP
I wonder whether Pauline McNeill is aware of the written evidence of the senators of the College of Justice, in which they said that, despite the new jury di...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge that, but I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees that some progress has been made, in that judges are now expected, in every case, to talk ab...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does Pauline McNeill believe that a 24 per cent conviction rate in single-charge rape cases is acceptable?
Pauline McNeill Lab
No, I do not. In case the member has misunderstood my point, the Government has said throughout that it is not specifically aiming to increase conviction rat...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Is there any time in hand?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes—there is a limited amount of time in hand.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will take an intervention from Christine Grahame.
Christine Grahame SNP
I am not on the committee, and I do not understand section 65(1), which says: “The Scottish Ministers may, by regulations, provide that trials on indictment...
Pauline McNeill Lab
That is one of the things that the Government has responded to—it will put the specified criteria into the bill. That is what I was trying to speak to, becau...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I greatly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee in the previous session and often find myself missing it, but I do not envy Audrey Nicoll and her colleagu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:54
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Getting the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill to this stage has been a marathon. As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I too th...
Russell Findlay Con
Does the member share the concerns that others have expressed about there being too much in one bill?
Rona Mackay SNP
There is no doubt that it is a big bill, but we have taken a long time to scrutinise it and have heard a great deal of evidence. I agree that it is huge, but...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank members for their valuable contributions thus far. It is fair to say that the bill has been on a bit of a journey, perhaps much like my own from the ...