Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2024
23 Apr 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
No, I do not. In case the member has misunderstood my point, the Government has said throughout that it is not specifically aiming to increase conviction rates, but it is unclear how the success of the pilot’s outcomes will be measured. That is a particularly important point.
I come to the question of low conviction rates. Simon Brown, from the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association, pointed out to the committee:
“If we drill down to basics, the pilot is a response to a perception that the conviction rate for rape trials is too low. Therefore, by any objective test, the pilot can be a success only if it increases conviction rates. If it does not increase conviction rates, what is the point of it?”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 6 February 2024; c 4.]
Clearly, we must have fair and balanced outcomes. I agree with the Government that it would be dangerous to set out to reform a criminal justice system specifically to increase conviction rates. I support Rona Mackay’s assertion that the conviction rate is too low. However, a lot of evidence suggests that supporting victims in court to tell their full story will lead to better-quality evidence and more convictions. Nobody can tell me that that can be overturned.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12922, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill at ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)
SNP
I open the debate with my thanks to the Criminal Justice Committee for its stage 1 report on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. It r...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way and for the remarks that she has just placed on the record, because this is a significant issue. In he...
Angela Constance
SNP
We will of course consider the debate in and around the jury majority with sensitivity and in depth, and we will look at all the relevant issues and engage w...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
The cabinet secretary already knows my position on juryless trials, so I will not reprise that. However, I would like clarification that the proposal is for ...
Angela Constance
SNP
I can give clarification to Ms Grahame that the pilot, whatever form it takes, is to look at rape and attempted rape cases. I have already given commitments ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I now call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:15
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
I am very pleased to speak in this afternoon’s debate on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. I extend the committee’s sincere thanks to the clerking te...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the Criminal Justice Committee team for their assistance and not least for the unseen work of the eternally patient researchers and clerks. Committee...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Will the member accept an intervention?
Russell Findlay
Con
I will.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I thank the member for his tone and for his thoughtful contribution. There you are. When I was in practice as a civil practitioner many moons ago, that alr...
Russell Findlay
Con
I thank the member for her intervention and have dialled down my flamboyance for her today. I agree. The member speaks to a point that is a recurring theme,...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I sincerely thank my colleagues on the Criminal Justice Committee and the committee clerks for what is an excellent report. The convener outlined its content...
Angela Constance
SNP
I wonder whether Pauline McNeill is aware of the written evidence of the senators of the College of Justice, in which they said that, despite the new jury di...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I acknowledge that, but I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees that some progress has been made, in that judges are now expected, in every case, to talk ab...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Does Pauline McNeill believe that a 24 per cent conviction rate in single-charge rape cases is acceptable?
Pauline McNeill
Lab
No, I do not. In case the member has misunderstood my point, the Government has said throughout that it is not specifically aiming to increase conviction rat...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Is there any time in hand?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Yes—there is a limited amount of time in hand.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I will take an intervention from Christine Grahame.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am not on the committee, and I do not understand section 65(1), which says: “The Scottish Ministers may, by regulations, provide that trials on indictment...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
That is one of the things that the Government has responded to—it will put the specified criteria into the bill. That is what I was trying to speak to, becau...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I greatly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee in the previous session and often find myself missing it, but I do not envy Audrey Nicoll and her colleagu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:54
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Getting the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill to this stage has been a marathon. As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I too th...
Russell Findlay
Con
Does the member share the concerns that others have expressed about there being too much in one bill?
Rona Mackay
SNP
There is no doubt that it is a big bill, but we have taken a long time to scrutinise it and have heard a great deal of evidence. I agree that it is huge, but...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank members for their valuable contributions thus far. It is fair to say that the bill has been on a bit of a journey, perhaps much like my own from the ...