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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2024

23 Apr 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I acknowledge that, but I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees that some progress has been made, in that judges are now expected, in every case, to talk about rape myths. I credit Rape Crisis Scotland and other organisations for making that happen.

However, from listening to victims, it is clear that we need to break down the barriers that prevent them from telling their story in court, and to allow more access to advocate deputes. We heard from victims that they feel like bystanders at their own trial, and we absolutely must fix that. We support the embedding of trauma-informed practices, which is included in the bill, although, as the committee has said, the scope of trauma-informed practice should be extended to all practitioners, including the defence.

A whole-system approach needs to be taken in order to make the system better for victims. We talked about a single point of contact. From the pleadings of victims to the Criminal Justice Committee, it is clear to me that they want to have a single point of contact, communication with the Crown, communication with the advocate deputes in their case and an understanding of what is going on in the trial that concerns them. We can do that without legislation.

Delay is one of the biggest reasons why victims are exercised about how the criminal justice system treats them. I point out, as I have many times, that even laws that are passed by the Parliament to prevent delay, which specify that there should be a criminal trial within 140 days, are excessively exceeded, as they have been for several years.

We also support anonymity for rape victims.

However, most of the other changes that are proposed in the bill are still problematic, and I will go through them in some detail.

Scottish Labour opposes the use of juryless trials as set out in the bill. It is concerning that the proposal is described as a “pilot”. Sheila Webster of the Law Society of Scotland made the point that

“It is not truly a pilot. We are talking about live cases here. People’s lives will be permanently affected, and at the end of the pilot we might decide that it was not a very good idea.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 24 January 2024; c 62.]

A key issue is that of what would constitute success. I acknowledge that the Government has said that it will put that in the bill, but we have been told that although it is not designing a system specifically to increase conviction rates, it will still assess outcomes—which, we assume, will include conviction rates.

In relation to the pilot, Professor James Chalmers told the Criminal Justice Committee that

“it would be surprising if conviction rates did not factor in the decision whether to go forward with the reform”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 24 January 2024; c 24.]

and, despite the Government’s claims, legal professionals have voiced their concerns that conviction rates are likely to be used as a marker of success.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12922, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill at ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I open the debate with my thanks to the Criminal Justice Committee for its stage 1 report on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. It r...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way and for the remarks that she has just placed on the record, because this is a significant issue. In he...
Angela Constance SNP
We will of course consider the debate in and around the jury majority with sensitivity and in depth, and we will look at all the relevant issues and engage w...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The cabinet secretary already knows my position on juryless trials, so I will not reprise that. However, I would like clarification that the proposal is for ...
Angela Constance SNP
I can give clarification to Ms Grahame that the pilot, whatever form it takes, is to look at rape and attempted rape cases. I have already given commitments ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I now call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:15
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am very pleased to speak in this afternoon’s debate on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. I extend the committee’s sincere thanks to the clerking te...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the Criminal Justice Committee team for their assistance and not least for the unseen work of the eternally patient researchers and clerks. Committee...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member accept an intervention?
Russell Findlay Con
I will.
Christine Grahame SNP
I thank the member for his tone and for his thoughtful contribution. There you are. When I was in practice as a civil practitioner many moons ago, that alr...
Russell Findlay Con
I thank the member for her intervention and have dialled down my flamboyance for her today. I agree. The member speaks to a point that is a recurring theme,...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I sincerely thank my colleagues on the Criminal Justice Committee and the committee clerks for what is an excellent report. The convener outlined its content...
Angela Constance SNP
I wonder whether Pauline McNeill is aware of the written evidence of the senators of the College of Justice, in which they said that, despite the new jury di...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge that, but I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees that some progress has been made, in that judges are now expected, in every case, to talk ab...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does Pauline McNeill believe that a 24 per cent conviction rate in single-charge rape cases is acceptable?
Pauline McNeill Lab
No, I do not. In case the member has misunderstood my point, the Government has said throughout that it is not specifically aiming to increase conviction rat...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Is there any time in hand?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes—there is a limited amount of time in hand.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will take an intervention from Christine Grahame.
Christine Grahame SNP
I am not on the committee, and I do not understand section 65(1), which says: “The Scottish Ministers may, by regulations, provide that trials on indictment...
Pauline McNeill Lab
That is one of the things that the Government has responded to—it will put the specified criteria into the bill. That is what I was trying to speak to, becau...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I greatly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee in the previous session and often find myself missing it, but I do not envy Audrey Nicoll and her colleagu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:54
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Getting the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill to this stage has been a marathon. As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I too th...
Russell Findlay Con
Does the member share the concerns that others have expressed about there being too much in one bill?
Rona Mackay SNP
There is no doubt that it is a big bill, but we have taken a long time to scrutinise it and have heard a great deal of evidence. I agree that it is huge, but...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank members for their valuable contributions thus far. It is fair to say that the bill has been on a bit of a journey, perhaps much like my own from the ...