Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 19 March 2024
19 Mar 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I fully understand Ms Grahame’s reasons for lodging her amendments, but I am unable to support them.
When introducing criminal offences, it is common to frame such offences in a way that allows a person to put forward a reasonable excuse for why the offence was committed. That is not a loophole. I am sure that Christine Grahame, as a former lawyer and former convener of the Justice Committee, will appreciate that it must always be for Police Scotland, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and, ultimately, the courts to determine whether a person who is accused of committing an offence can demonstrate that they had a reasonable excuse for doing so.
For those reasons, I cannot support Christine Grahame’s amendments, and I encourage members to vote against them.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)
NPA
Our next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have the...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Group 1 is on glue traps. Amendment 38, in the name of Christine Grahame, is grouped with amendments 39, 40, 1, 41, 2, 3, 42, 4 to 6, 43, 44, 7 to 11, and 29...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
The arguments that I will make in support of amendment 38 apply equally to amendment 39. Of the other amendments in the group, my intention is to reference i...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Could you please bring your remarks to a conclusion?
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am bringing them to a conclusion. The point that I am making—which deserves to be re-emphasised—is that, until stage 3, there was no notion that we would...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Glue traps are barbaric, cruel and indiscriminate. Rats and mice, and sometimes non-target species, that are stuck in traps often remain there until the pers...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Colin Smyth
Lab
I am sure that Edward Mountain will have an opportunity to speak in the debate, but I will still give way to him at this point.
Edward Mountain
Con
I thank the member for giving way. Twice this afternoon I have heard non-target species being mentioned. In the environments that we are talking about—inside...
Colin Smyth
Lab
Any animal crossing a glue trap will be caught. The reality is that the cruelty to rats and mice is absolutely clear for everyone to see. No matter who sets ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call the minister to speak to amendment 1 and other amendments in the group.
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie)
SNP
I fully understand Ms Grahame’s reasons for lodging her amendments, but I am unable to support them. When introducing criminal offences, it is common to fra...
Christine Grahame
SNP
How can someone have a reasonable excuse for doing something that is banned?
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I will come on to that question as I get through my notes. Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is an offence to knowingly cause or permit someon...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Con
Given that the minister and his predecessors had ample time to raise concerns around a total ban on glue traps, why was it that there was—as Colin Smyth said...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Clearly, Finlay Carson is setting the tone of the debate today. I will come on to why we have an enabling power. I turn to my amendments in the group. To pu...
Finlay Carson
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I will not, at the moment. The power sets out that the scheme can be used only to allow authorisations where no other method of rodent control is practicab...
Finlay Carson
Con
I will try again. In the spirit of the debate and of passing legislation, will the minister lay out when he first heard the concerns of the British Pest Cont...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
We lodged the amendments to allow the enabling power because we had listened. We heard that people were genuinely concerned. Your colleague, who is sitting b...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Always speak through the chair, please.
Jim Fairlie
SNP
We listened to those concerns, and it would be prudent in the extreme to make sure that we have something in place, just in case there is an emergency. The...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Edward Mountain to speak to amendment 41 and other amendments in the group.
Edward Mountain
Con
I start by saying that I fear that I might be on the other side of the debate on some of the subject matter from Christine Grahame and Colin Smyth. However, ...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Will the member give way?
Edward Mountain
Con
I will give way to you, minister.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
You should always speak through the chair.
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Edward Mountain proposed a licensing scheme that could be given to any pest controller who does not have accreditation in this country, whereas we are propos...
Edward Mountain
Con
Well, there we go. The minister is still not listening. I was talking about following parliamentary procedure and talking to people who have lodged amendment...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Perhaps the factory cat that is there to keep the number of mice down is wandering about. Cats can get stuck in the traps. They are one example.