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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 March 2024

19 Mar 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Any animal crossing a glue trap will be caught. The reality is that the cruelty to rats and mice is absolutely clear for everyone to see. No matter who sets such traps, sentient animals suffer appalling distress during that time, which is why glue traps should be banned, and that ban should be watertight. It is typical of Edward Mountain that, once again, he adopts a do-nothing attitude and is unwilling to consider any alternatives.

Amendment 40, in my name, aims to close a loophole within the proposed ban, by making it an offence to

“knowingly cause or permit another unauthorised person”

to use a glue trap.

Paragraph 12 on page 3 of the explanatory notes accompanying the bill states that the offence of using such a trap does not apply if the person has

“a reasonable excuse for using or setting a glue trap. For example, it is not the intention to criminalise circumstances where a person is compelled to use a glue trap by a workplace superior.”

That raises the prospect that a person could get round the ban by compelling someone else to use a trap. “Causing or permitting” offences are used in a wide variety of legislative provisions to prevent individuals from escaping sanctions when they have made or allowed another person to commit an offence on their behalf. In fact, there is an example of such a provision in section 9(2)(b) of the bill, which creates the offence of causing or permitting another person to make muirburn without a licence.

At stage 2, I lodged an amendment that would have included such a provision on glue traps in section 1. The previous minister acknowledged the need for such a provision, but asked me not to move my amendment and said that the Government would consider an alternative wording, which it has done. I will move a reworded amendment at the appropriate time.

Amendments 38 and 39, in the name of Christine Grahame, appear to have a similar aim to my amendment 40 and would remove the words “without reasonable excuse” from the offence. Amendment 40 is a more appropriate solution, but I would happily support amendments 38 and 39 if Christine Grahame presses them. The wording of my amendment 40 makes reference to an “unauthorised person”. That reflects the fact that the Government has proposed amendments for exceptions to offences on the use, supply and possession of glue traps so long as the person is authorised under the scheme, which is required to be established by regulations.

I share Christine Grahame’s concerns on that proposal. Although it is certainly preferable to the licensing scheme proposed by Edward Mountain in amendments 41 to 43, which simply attempt to undermine any ban, it concerns me that the Government is proposing amendments that will make a material change to the bill very late in the day, with absolutely no discussion with Opposition members. Those amendments were lodged at the last minute, which has made it almost impossible to scrutinise them, never mind propose changes to them if we were to have concerns.

As we have heard, there is a full ban in Wales. It is therefore deeply disappointing that, at the 11th hour, the Scottish Government is watering down its proposed ban. Notwithstanding that, I hope that, in his comments, the minister will make it absolutely clear that the use of that enabling power would be considered in the future only if there were strong evidence to suggest that a complete ban on the use of glue traps was giving rise to significant public health problems, and that any authorisation would be granted only as a last resort in exceptional circumstances and for time-limited periods.

I hope, too, that the minister will make it clear to the industry that any authorisation scheme would be a temporary step, and that its expectation would be that the industry will adopt alternative methods, as the Government’s own Scottish Animal Welfare Commission said should happen if an authorisation scheme were to be adopted.

Perhaps Edward Mountain should consider this aspect. In other countries with similar schemes, such as New Zealand, which brought in its scheme in 2015, the numbers of applications have decreased significantly over the years, and in the past few years there have been none at all. The minister must make it absolutely clear to the industry that that is what he expects to see happen in Scotland.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
Our next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Group 1 is on glue traps. Amendment 38, in the name of Christine Grahame, is grouped with amendments 39, 40, 1, 41, 2, 3, 42, 4 to 6, 43, 44, 7 to 11, and 29...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The arguments that I will make in support of amendment 38 apply equally to amendment 39. Of the other amendments in the group, my intention is to reference i...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Could you please bring your remarks to a conclusion?
Christine Grahame SNP
I am bringing them to a conclusion. The point that I am making—which deserves to be re-emphasised—is that, until stage 3, there was no notion that we would...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Glue traps are barbaric, cruel and indiscriminate. Rats and mice, and sometimes non-target species, that are stuck in traps often remain there until the pers...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Colin Smyth Lab
I am sure that Edward Mountain will have an opportunity to speak in the debate, but I will still give way to him at this point.
Edward Mountain Con
I thank the member for giving way. Twice this afternoon I have heard non-target species being mentioned. In the environments that we are talking about—inside...
Colin Smyth Lab
Any animal crossing a glue trap will be caught. The reality is that the cruelty to rats and mice is absolutely clear for everyone to see. No matter who sets ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call the minister to speak to amendment 1 and other amendments in the group.
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie) SNP
I fully understand Ms Grahame’s reasons for lodging her amendments, but I am unable to support them. When introducing criminal offences, it is common to fra...
Christine Grahame SNP
How can someone have a reasonable excuse for doing something that is banned?
Jim Fairlie SNP
I will come on to that question as I get through my notes. Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is an offence to knowingly cause or permit someon...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Given that the minister and his predecessors had ample time to raise concerns around a total ban on glue traps, why was it that there was—as Colin Smyth said...
Jim Fairlie SNP
Clearly, Finlay Carson is setting the tone of the debate today. I will come on to why we have an enabling power. I turn to my amendments in the group. To pu...
Finlay Carson Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Jim Fairlie SNP
I will not, at the moment. The power sets out that the scheme can be used only to allow authorisations where no other method of rodent control is practicab...
Finlay Carson Con
I will try again. In the spirit of the debate and of passing legislation, will the minister lay out when he first heard the concerns of the British Pest Cont...
Jim Fairlie SNP
We lodged the amendments to allow the enabling power because we had listened. We heard that people were genuinely concerned. Your colleague, who is sitting b...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Always speak through the chair, please.
Jim Fairlie SNP
We listened to those concerns, and it would be prudent in the extreme to make sure that we have something in place, just in case there is an emergency. The...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Edward Mountain to speak to amendment 41 and other amendments in the group.
Edward Mountain Con
I start by saying that I fear that I might be on the other side of the debate on some of the subject matter from Christine Grahame and Colin Smyth. However, ...
Jim Fairlie SNP
Will the member give way?
Edward Mountain Con
I will give way to you, minister.
The Presiding Officer NPA
You should always speak through the chair.
Jim Fairlie SNP
Edward Mountain proposed a licensing scheme that could be given to any pest controller who does not have accreditation in this country, whereas we are propos...
Edward Mountain Con
Well, there we go. The minister is still not listening. I was talking about following parliamentary procedure and talking to people who have lodged amendment...
Christine Grahame SNP
Perhaps the factory cat that is there to keep the number of mice down is wandering about. Cats can get stuck in the traps. They are one example.