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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 February 2024

28 Feb 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Qualifications and Assessment

I welcome the constructive and open discussion that we had last week with the cabinet secretary. I thought that that was quite a helpful session; she was much more open than I was expecting her to be, which was a good thing.

I have to say that it is ridiculous to have only four minutes to sum up my thoughts on the issue before us. We need much longer to discuss such matters, so I hope that we get more time at a future opportunity.

This is not year zero; 2016 was not even year zero. It was year zero way before then.

I think that the education community has been expecting significant reform after the reviews that Liam Kerr very meticulously set out. I pity the researcher who was tasked with working all that out. There have been a number of committees—lots and lots of them—and there have been various reviews that have built up an expectation in the education community that change is going to come. Therefore, this sudden change of direction—it is quite a sudden change of direction, and I will come on to explain what my views about it are—has discombobulated the education sector. Those in the sector are a bit confused as to exactly what is going to happen, and that is why this debate needs to give them clarity.

I have sympathy with the argument that there is enough going on. I accept that, with issues in relation to behaviour, additional support needs and high absence rates, together with various other things, the sector is under a lot of pressure and we need to be really careful about how we proceed. The problem with that is that there is an expectation—our previous First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, set it out—that, by 2026, we will have educational improvement in international terms and we will be closing the poverty-related attainment gap, whether substantially or completely. There is an expectation among the electorate that that is going to be done. The problem with the argument that there is enough going on already is that it implies that we are just going to stick with the status quo until we have things under control. We cannot just accept the status quo—we need to make improvements.

The problem that I have in relation to the behavioural issue and the absence policy that the minister set out is that I do not think that enough is being done. We need to have leadership from the top explaining why we think that the assessment on behaviour needs to change. The education secretary knows that I am in favour of setting clear boundaries and having consequences—or microconsequences, as some people call them—so that pupils know where they stand. I think that that is required in our schools, and teachers need to know that the education secretary has their back when they take those steps.

We need change. Before Christmas, I set out a number of changes that I thought should be included. On knowledge, I think that the education secretary has moved on. It is a welcome step to increase the knowledge content in maths. On resources, Pam Duncan-Glancy set out the contact time—we need progress on that. I am not particularly confident that the cabinet secretary will be able to deliver it, but we need it. I have talked about behaviour already. We need to change the Scottish national standardised assessments. The standardised assessments for P1s are ridiculous and they should go. They undermine the curriculum for excellence approach that we have adopted—that broader approach to education.

On accountability, the problem with delaying the reform to the national bodies is that we are leaving a vacuum. We need national bodies that have heft and are able to challenge the educational establishment.

I have not even got on to Hayward. I will quickly rattle through the Hayward review. On exams, I broadly accept the position of Carole Ford and the Commission for School Reform on nat 5s. I disagree with Pam Duncan-Glancy—I think that we should move back to the two-plus-two-plus-two model, as it avoids the two-term dash. I have sympathy with changing the continuous assessments. Looking at reform of the number of qualifications that we have is sensible.

I have concerns about introducing a personal pathway. The personal pathway is a big step, particularly in relation to how we are going to validate it. We could do more project work, not just the tokenistic stuff that some are implementing.

On parity of esteem, we should be using the Scottish credit and qualifications framework much more explicitly and we should be looking at the insight programme, which drives much of the behaviour in schools in terms of what headteachers try to encourage pupils to participate in. I have not really dug into that. We need so much more time for this debate.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12304, in the name of Jenny Gilruth, on the recommendations of the independent review of qualifications a...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I am pleased to open this important debate on the recommendations of the independent review of qualifications and assessment. On Monday, I met teaching profe...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Does the cabinet secretary recognise that all the factors that she has set out are reasons for introducing reform rather than delaying it?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
The context that the member has addressed is important. However, as she knows, I built in an additional year, which has been important in allowing us to bett...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary postulates a fascinating idea. With regard to the maths specialist, we are looking at implementation not in this academic year and, pos...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
There are two elements to that, the first of which is curriculum improvement. The curriculum improvement that I announced in December will have a maths speci...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
When will the new qualifications body be up and running? Which cohort of pupils will take the exams that it will set?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I gave some of that information when I responded to the previous intervention from Pam Duncan-Glancy’s colleague. I will legislate for the creation of the ne...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome this debate on what has become known colloquially as the Hayward review. Arguably—I think that Ross Greer will pick up on this point later—we sho...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I agree that simply putting the project learning on to an already unequal system will increase that inequality. I am interested in Mr Kerr’s perspective on t...
Liam Kerr Con
That is an interesting point. The key to that goes back to what I was talking about earlier: we really need to interrogate what is going on here. We need to ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking Professor Louise Hayward and her team, and all the teachers, pupils, support staff and parents, for the work that they did on the report....
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Earlier, I made the point that we currently have quite a cluttered approach to qualifications in the school sector. Should some of the subjects to which the ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Those opportunities need to be available to children and young people, wherever they are. Some children and young people will flourish in those subjects in s...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I welcome the constructive and open discussion that we had last week with the cabinet secretary. I thought that that was quite a helpful session; she was muc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
As we move to the open debate, I remind all members who wish to speak to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak button. I advise members that ba...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
The SNP Government has an excellent track record of investing in Scottish education. We have significantly more teachers per pupil than Tory-led England or L...
Willie Rennie LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Fulton MacGregor SNP
No—I do not have enough time. Sorry. That has gone some way to reducing the poverty-related attainment gap, which is a massive issue in my constituency. At ...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
We cannot afford to think that curriculum for excellence, which was introduced in 2010-11, will still be fit for purpose by the end of this century. Indeed, ...
Ivan McKee (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) SNP
The debate is hugely important and it is critical to get it right, not just for our young people and learners more widely but for the wider economy and socie...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
First, I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills has consulted those in the school and college teaching professions. That was th...
Bill Kidd (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the publication of “It’s Our Future”, the final report of the independent review of qualifications and assessment. I agree “that it is crucial tha...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I have a lot to cram into four minutes, but the cabinet secretary need not worry—I can write to her at length about this if required. I agree with Liam Kerr ...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
Please conclude, Mr Greer.
Ross Greer Green
We cannot do that again. We need to be brave and seize the opportunity to create a system that will serve young people in our society for decades. 16:49
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
I will use my time today to emphasise some of what Professor Hayward has said. First, I draw Parliament’s attention to the evidence that we received from her...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I have enjoyed listening to today’s debate, but a little bit of balance always has to be inserted into our debates. Interruption. The cabinet secretary groan...
Martin Whitfield Lab
Does Oliver Mundell agree that youth work could feed in exceptionally well to those groups of people and provide support that they might not otherwise get?
Oliver Mundell Con
I acknowledge that. However, the very good youth work services in my patch, which are award winning and for which I have huge admiration, do not have the res...