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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 February 2024

28 Feb 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Referral Back to Lead Committee at Stage 1

The establishment of a national care service gives the Parliament the chance to be bold, ambitious and innovative. I am clear that it is not Scottish Labour that is delaying it; I fear that it is the Government. The bill could have been introduced 10 years ago. The Scottish Government has chosen to force a bill through to stage 2 despite it falling seriously short of the mark. The convener is correct to say that we took hours of evidence. The report includes page after page of criticism and a major change in the deal with COSLA.

At the last minute, the minister has chosen to send a letter to the Parliament rather than to engage with the committee. I have only three minutes to respond to that, but, if the minister would come to the committee, the committee would be able to undertake proper scrutiny.

Time and again, trade unions, the third sector, carers and people who receive care came to the committee, or spoke to members individually, to express serious concerns about the way that the bill was progressing, but the Government’s conclusion has been to ignore that and push on anyway. The minister might have spoken to hundreds and hundreds of people, but she has not listened to them, and, as we have heard through their stakeholders, hundreds and hundreds of people are still very confused.

Labour has called for a national care service for years, because, if delivered properly, it would deliver much-needed parity between health and social care. It is challenging to fully understand the SNP’s motives when it comes to its stubborn position on the national care service. It is widely acknowledged that the bill as introduced has changed direction significantly, is unclear and needs further scrutiny at stage 1, and the Government agrees. Members of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee agree, and other committees have expressed extensive concern about the bill. Stakeholders continue to express extensive concerns.

I want to address the minister’s notion that we are delaying things. Extensive evidence was given to the committee about the things that we can already take forward at this point. Fair work principles, the work with the trade unions and the work on Anne’s law do not require the bill, so will not be delayed, but that is not what the Government chooses to tell people about the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill.

As members have heard from my colleague Jackie Baillie, Labour wants a national care service. My colleague and I tried hard on the committee to fight for an expert advisory group, but that was rejected. We asked for amendments at stage 1, but that was rejected. Eventually, we had to ask for the general principles of the bill, which are completely unclear, to be rejected. The committee chose not to reject the general principles, although there was a significant division.

I must close now, but I hope that members—particularly back benchers—choose to send the bill back to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for proper scrutiny.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12317, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: referral back to the ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I come to the chamber more in sorrow than in anger to move a motion to ask the Parliament to send the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill back to the Healt...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am entirely in agreement with what Jackie Baillie is saying.
The Minister for Local Government Empowerment and Planning (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
That is a surprise.
Liz Smith Con
Actually, it is not a surprise, because I think that we both have exactly the same views about the importance of scrutiny in the Parliament. Does Jackie Bai...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I absolutely do. The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee made the point that it is not good legislative practice to stick substantive decisions on spen...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a practising general practitioner in the national health service. I am also a member ...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
There has been much talk from the Opposition about a framework bill. I remind members that the national health service was established in the United Kingdom ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart—
Kevin Stewart SNP
—to create an institution that works for all—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart, do you have some kind of question for the member?
Kevin Stewart SNP
It is a pity that Dr Gulhane and others do not have the radical edge that Nye Bevan and others did—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart! Dr Gulhane, please continue.
Sandesh Gulhane Con
Well, there was no question. If Mr Stewart wanted to speak, he should have put his name forward to do a speech. I ask members across the chamber to vote not...
The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport (Maree Todd) SNP
The National Care Service (Scotland) Bill is our opportunity to reform the social care system in Scotland. I welcome the Parliament’s consideration of such a...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Maree Todd SNP
I have five minutes. I will not be taking interventions. People across the country deserve better, and that is what the bill will bring. Most important, it ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Haughey to speak on behalf of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. 15:37
Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) SNP
The Health, Social Care and Sport Committee has undertaken extensive scrutiny of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill since its introduction in June 202...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I rise to support the motion in the name of Jackie Baillie. Presiding Officer, there is an element of ministerial cosplay at work here. If you listen to the...
Sandesh Gulhane Con
The minister said that focus on the parliamentary process was not needed, but this is not obtuse process—this is scrutiny. It is clear that this secretive Sc...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The establishment of a national care service gives the Parliament the chance to be bold, ambitious and innovative. I am clear that it is not Scottish Labour ...