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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 February 2024

28 Feb 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Referral Back to Lead Committee at Stage 1

I absolutely do. The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee made the point that it is not good legislative practice to stick substantive decisions on spending into secondary legislation.

An expert bill advisory group simply does not exist for the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill, so there is a genuine lack of confidence that the proposed changes will work, and promises of co-production after the bill is passed are not enough. Witness after witness described the bill as “vague”, as lacking in vision and as failing to articulate a set of general principles.

Rachel Cackett, of the Coalition of Care and Support Providers in Scotland, encapsulated the problem. She said:

“I do not know what the bill will look like ... For me, there is a question about what principles are being agreed at stage 1 and also what exactly those amendments will look like.”

Dr Jim Elder-Woodward, from Inclusion Scotland, rightly complained that the Scottish Government’s deal with COSLA

“did not take any cognisance of the co-design process and ... was made without reference to any stakeholder”.—[Official Report, Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, 31 October 2023; c 28, 23.]

This Parliament is a relatively young institution, and we do not have a second revising chamber. It is therefore important that we take the time to get things right.

I want to support the bill, but it is currently a mess. We are in danger of making bad legislation because the Government has not allowed appropriate scrutiny. This is about the integrity of the Parliament and the integrity of us as members. Every party that is represented in the chamber, aside from the SNP and the Greens, has expressed disquiet. Parliament matters, and I ask back-bench members of the Government parties not to railroad the bill through.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill be referred back to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for a further report on the general principles of the Bill.

15:26  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12317, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: referral back to the ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I come to the chamber more in sorrow than in anger to move a motion to ask the Parliament to send the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill back to the Healt...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am entirely in agreement with what Jackie Baillie is saying.
The Minister for Local Government Empowerment and Planning (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
That is a surprise.
Liz Smith Con
Actually, it is not a surprise, because I think that we both have exactly the same views about the importance of scrutiny in the Parliament. Does Jackie Bai...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I absolutely do. The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee made the point that it is not good legislative practice to stick substantive decisions on spen...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a practising general practitioner in the national health service. I am also a member ...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
There has been much talk from the Opposition about a framework bill. I remind members that the national health service was established in the United Kingdom ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart—
Kevin Stewart SNP
—to create an institution that works for all—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart, do you have some kind of question for the member?
Kevin Stewart SNP
It is a pity that Dr Gulhane and others do not have the radical edge that Nye Bevan and others did—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Stewart! Dr Gulhane, please continue.
Sandesh Gulhane Con
Well, there was no question. If Mr Stewart wanted to speak, he should have put his name forward to do a speech. I ask members across the chamber to vote not...
The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport (Maree Todd) SNP
The National Care Service (Scotland) Bill is our opportunity to reform the social care system in Scotland. I welcome the Parliament’s consideration of such a...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Maree Todd SNP
I have five minutes. I will not be taking interventions. People across the country deserve better, and that is what the bill will bring. Most important, it ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Haughey to speak on behalf of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. 15:37
Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) SNP
The Health, Social Care and Sport Committee has undertaken extensive scrutiny of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill since its introduction in June 202...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I rise to support the motion in the name of Jackie Baillie. Presiding Officer, there is an element of ministerial cosplay at work here. If you listen to the...
Sandesh Gulhane Con
The minister said that focus on the parliamentary process was not needed, but this is not obtuse process—this is scrutiny. It is clear that this secretive Sc...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The establishment of a national care service gives the Parliament the chance to be bold, ambitious and innovative. I am clear that it is not Scottish Labour ...