Committee
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee 27 February 2024
27 Feb 2024 · S6 · Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Item of business
Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Dr Ottley
Watch on SPTV
That is a good question. Whether silent prayer is included in the prohibited activities varies depending on the jurisdiction. In one jurisdiction, the point was made that silent prayer would not be included because the wording of the prohibited activities included protest, and they did not regard silent prayer as an act of protest. However, where the legislation is framed more broadly, so that it prohibits any act that has consequence, silent prayer tends to fall within that. It is outside the scope of this research, but other research looks into the impact of silent prayer on people who are accessing clinics. Some of the parliamentary reports cite a lot of research on the impact of silent prayer on people. They talk about the fact that doing it very close to a clinic can be the problem, as opposed to doing it somewhere else. What comes across from the parliamentary reports is that it is more than just silent prayer. Silent prayer has been a big issue in the English and Welsh legislation in the sense that an amendment that was tabled at the final stage specifically excluded silent prayer from the legislation. It was not successful, but in the draft guidance that was published recently, which the UK Government has just closed its consultation on, silent prayer seemed to be excluded, so the Government was accused of watering down protection from the legislation. While I was talking about that, I remembered the other point that I was going to make in regard to your first question. The situation in England and Wales is unique in that safe access zones are dealt with in general protest legislation. In most other jurisdictions, safe access zones for abortion are either a stand-alone piece of legislation or they are dealt with in abortion legislation more generally, but in England and Wales, safe access zones are in quite controversial protest legislation. I wonder whether there might be a connection there—it is not necessarily a slippery slope, but it links to broader protest in that sense. Does that answer your question?
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
The next item on our agenda is a presentation from Emily Ottley, who undertook commissioned research for the committee on an international comparison of abor...
Dr Emily Ottley (University of Winchester)
Lovely. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Emily Ottley. I am a lecturer in law at the University of Winchester. As you just explained, I was asked to under...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much, Emily.
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)
Green
On that final point about how recently most of those measures have been implemented and the lack of evidence about impact, is there even any anecdotal indica...
Dr Ottley
Yes, definitely. In particular, anecdotal evidence from service providers and clinic users is generally very positive, even when a presence of protesters has...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Thanks for the presentation. I have a couple of questions. The first revolves around what has been said about a slippery slope argument in other jurisdiction...
Dr Ottley
I have not seen the phrase “slippery slope” used in any of the reports that I have read, but people are concerned about the fact that legislation often targe...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The other question, which has come up in other places, revolves around silent prayer. It is sometimes impossible to know whether people are protesting—someti...
Dr Ottley
That is a good question. Whether silent prayer is included in the prohibited activities varies depending on the jurisdiction. In one jurisdiction, the point ...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Yes. Could you expand on the point about what difference it makes if safe access zones are included in protest legislation rather than in other legislation? ...
Dr Ottley
Different people see it in different ways, but there might be a perception, which seems to come across in some of the Hansard reports, that “anti-abortion” p...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
My question follows on from Sandesh Gulhane’s question about silent prayer. Does the other legislation look at the number of people standing outside a clinic...
Dr Ottley
None of the legislation that I have looked at says that a certain number of people is or is not okay. The legislation is generally quite broad in what is pro...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
This has been really useful. I am interested in what you said about some of the legislation that you have looked at listing prohibited behaviour. The sense w...
Dr Ottley
Some of the parliamentary debates show some concern about how to characterise a particular behaviour. Some of the legal challenges regarding human rights com...
Emma Harper
SNP
My next question is on a different subject—the rights of protesters versus those of women who are seeking an abortion. Our briefing papers say that the Unite...
Dr Ottley
To go back to the UK Supreme Court judgment in the Northern Ireland case, the court explicitly said that it was prioritising the rights of women who were acc...
Ivan McKee (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you for your interesting research on the issue. I have a couple of questions about impact. You mentioned a couple of legal cases that have been unsucce...
Dr Ottley
On successful challenges, in the US, an earlier version of the Massachusetts law made it an offence to knowingly enter or remain within 35 feet—about 11m—of ...
Ivan McKee
SNP
That is fine. I suppose that it is too early to say how such charges progress, if and when they are brought, with regard to giving some clarity on what behav...
Dr Ottley
Perhaps I did not explain that super well. The Public Order Act 2023, which applies to England and Wales, has been in the news as a controversial piece of le...
Ivan McKee
SNP
No—that is fine. If I understand it correctly, that legislation makes a clear distinction between other protests and abortion zone provisions. Is that correct?
Dr Ottley
Yes. Section 9 of the 2023 act is singled out as relating to abortion safe access zones.
The Convener
SNP
Sandesh Gulhane wants to come in.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Thank you, convener—it is just to declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner.
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Ross Greer wants to come in.
Ross Greer
Green
I will be brief. Dr Ottley, I am interested to know how, in any of the examples that you came across, the legislation, ordinance or whatever it was engaged w...
Dr Ottley
Not as far as I am aware. I recall reading about behaviour that could happen in situations in which there were churches in a zone—for example, about whether ...
Ross Greer
Green
I am talking about the impact on behaviour, such as in the example that you gave. A church can put a sign outside, just as somebody could put a sign in their...
Dr Ottley
Yes—for sure. That is connected to the size of the zones. Some people who do not agree with safe access zone legislation but might prefer a case-by-case PSPO...