Committee
Rural Affairs and Islands Committee 21 February 2024
21 Feb 2024 · S6 · Rural Affairs and Islands Committee
Item of business
Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Before I speak to and move my amendment, and because there are new committee members, I would like to make a declaration of interests in line with those that I have made before, so that people are aware that I am a member of a family farming partnership and the joint owner of a wild fishery. Both roles require the controlling of some species of wildlife, including stoats, weasels, mink, rats, mice, foxes and corvids, which include crows, rooks and jackdaws. I have been controlling and managing wildlife to manage environments for more than 40 years. I use licensed firearms and spring traps. I make it clear that I do not own any hill ground, but I have been involved for more than 40 years in muirburn and burning to manage grassland and farmland and protect it from invasive species such as gorse and broom. In the past, I have supervised muirburn and have contributed to muirburn consultations and management plans. I hope that what I have said is sufficient for the committee to understand that I have a relevant interest in the matter. 11:30 Convener, I will speak only to the amendments in the group that are relevant to me. The reason why I lodged my amendments is to ensure that training courses are relevant and that there is consultation with interested parties and land managers when it comes to setting them up. In my experience in the countryside, I have found that, once courses have been set up, they tend to expand in time. For example, a deer stalking certificate 1 course that could have lasted two days now extends to four days. It concerns me that a whole industry is building up around these courses. I believe that they can be limited in time to make sure that they are short and relevant. The other thing that I have found is that courses are becoming increasingly expensive. There may be up to eight to 10 people on a course, with each being charged £500 to £600 for it. It can work out as £3,000 a day for one instructor, which seems an extremely high figure. I seek to limit the cost of the courses to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to take them. I do not propose to speak to the other amendments in the group yet. I will listen to the arguments that are made on them and comment at the end. Thank you for your time, convener. I move amendment 180.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Our next item of business is consideration of the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome Jim Fairlie, the Minister for Agricu...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 180, in the name of Edward Mountain, is grouped with amendments 120, 13, 121, and 14 to 16.
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
Before I speak to and move my amendment, and because there are new committee members, I would like to make a declaration of interests in line with those that...
The Convener
Con
I invite Colin Smyth to speak to amendment 120 and the other amendments in the group.
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
My amendment 120 proposes that NatureScot should consider independent animal welfare expertise when determining the content of the trap training courses. The...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I draw members’ attention to my registered interest as a partner in a farming business and, through that, as a member of a number of organisations including ...
The Convener
Con
Before I ask the minister to come in, I will make a contribution. Will the minister confirm whether the licences suggested in Colin Smyth’s amendment are com...
Jim Fairlie (Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity)
SNP
It is quite strange to be sitting at this end of the table, having spent the past three years in the seat that Emma Harper is now sitting in. It feels a litt...
Edward Mountain
Con
I am disappointed to hear what the minister has said, specifically in relation to amendments 180 and 16. He almost indicated that he was prepared to go on am...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
I will go back to amendment 16, if you do not mind. Obviously, it is a very practical amendment. The Scottish Government often co-designs schemes with practi...
Edward Mountain
Con
I agree with Rachael Hamilton. I think that the minister referred to Alex Hogg, who is the chairman of the SGA. He is a man with huge experience of these mat...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I am happy to discuss amendment 13 further with Edward Mountain.
Edward Mountain
Con
Amendment 14.
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I thought that you said amendment 13.
Edward Mountain
Con
I am sorry, convener; I know that I should speak through the chair. I said that I understand that the number of days of courses, which amendment 13 deals wit...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I am happy to discuss amendment 14, and I apologise—that was my mistake. Amendment 16 requires NatureScot to consult persons who are likely to be interested...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 180 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, R...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 180 disagreed to.
Colin Smyth
Lab
It is disappointing that the minister will not support the pretty modest proposal in amendment 120, particularly given the suggestion that the training would...
Colin Smyth
Lab
Some time ago, in response to my members’ business debate on the ethical principles of wildlife management, the Government said that it would consider such a...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Against Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highland...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 8, Abstentions 0 Amendment 121 disagreed to. Amendments 14 and 15 not moved. Amendment 16 moved—Edward Mount...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, R...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 16 disagreed to. Amendment 57 moved—Rachael Hamilton.
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 57 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, R...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 6, Abstentions 0. Amendment 57 disagreed to. Amendment 80 moved—Finlay Carson.