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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 06 February 2024

06 Feb 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Fraser, Murdo Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

Mr Johnson makes a very fair point. In the evidence that was given to the committee, some of the strongest-worded evidence against some of the additional protections for debtors came from, I think, the City of Edinburgh Council. To be fair, it is a reflection of the financial pressure that councils feel under that they have to try to recover whatever sums are due to them.

There is also a risk that, if bankruptcy legislation goes too far in protecting the debtor, it creates an active disincentive for mainstream financial institutions to be involved in lending to those who may be deemed financially vulnerable. That means that those individuals cannot access finance from reputable sources and are left, therefore, with no option but to go to the unregulated loan sharks who operate outwith the law. That cannot be in anyone’s interest and it demonstrates why a careful balance is needed when drawing up bankruptcy rules. That balance was reflected in the evidence that the committee heard on the bill that is before us.

As we have heard from the minister and the committee convener, the bill makes what are, in the main, fairly minor and technical reforms to existing bankruptcy legislation. The most significant reform in the bill, and the one that took up most of the committee’s time, was the introduction of a specific protection for debtors who have a mental illness, with the creation of a moratorium on debt recovery action. That is not a novel concept. It reflects the breathing space scheme that already exists in England and Wales, where individuals receiving “crisis treatment”, which encompasses those in compulsory treatment as well as those with conditions of comparable severity who are receiving crisis, emergency or acute treatment without compulsion, are protected from bankruptcy proceedings.

As we have heard, the committee received widespread support from stakeholders for the principle of a mental health moratorium. However, we also heard that there was concern about the lack of detail on how such a moratorium would operate in practice. The mental health moratorium working group agreed that the entry criteria should apply only to those who are subject to compulsory treatment orders, therefore excluding individuals with severe mental health issues who are in receipt of in-patient care and treatment on a voluntary basis. That approach was criticised by a number of those who gave evidence, including One Parent Families Scotland and the Poverty Alliance, which felt that the approach was too narrow and would help only a very small number of people. The alternative suggestion was the use of the term “severely mentally impaired”, which currently exists in council tax legislation, but there are concerns that that language is now outdated.

The committee’s concern, as we heard from the convener, is that, in asking Parliament to agree the general principles and to pass the bill at this stage without any detail as to how the moratorium would work in practice, we are essentially being asked to write a blank cheque to the Government. We have therefore asked the Government to provide, ahead of stage 2, more detail as to how the scheme would work in practice.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12070, in the name of Tom Arthur, on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I ask membe...
The Minister for Community Wealth and Public Finance (Tom Arthur) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to address the chamber on the general principles of the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill. The bill is not a big one...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Does Tom Arthur not recognise that the very fact that the bill is an enabling bill, rather than one that sets out criteria, mechanisms and thresholds, makes ...
Tom Arthur SNP
The member makes a fair point, which I will turn to as I progress through my prepared remarks. I commend the members of the mental health moratorium working...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The problem with the working group’s recommendations is that, if the Government eventually adopted them as its proposals, they would give people who are suff...
Tom Arthur SNP
I will come on to further detail of what we will take forward in the regulations. The detail of how the proposals will work in practice will be set out in ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Thank you. Members may wish to know that we have time in hand this afternoon, and that we hope to give back time for any interventions taken. 14:38
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Economy and Fair Work Committee in the role of convener in this stage 1 debate on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotla...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests: I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland, albeit not currently practising. I echo th...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Does Murdo Fraser agree that it would be beneficial for the overall culture of enterprise in this country if we had a less stigmatising approach to bankruptc...
Murdo Fraser Con
I totally agree with that interesting intervention. In the United States, successful entrepreneurs often fail in business for a number of times before they a...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does Murdo Fraser agree that there is an interesting contrast between public agencies and private businesses in the approaches that are being taken? The bank...
Murdo Fraser Con
Mr Johnson makes a very fair point. In the evidence that was given to the committee, some of the strongest-worded evidence against some of the additional pro...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser sets out the challenge very clearly. Is there not a concomitant risk that many debtors who are aware of the fact that mental health may provide ...
Murdo Fraser Con
Fergus Ewing, with his usual lawyerly background, makes a fair point about the potential for unintended consequences. I was pleased to note that, in his let...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
Yes, please go ahead, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
The question of the discharge of trustees was alluded to by the committee’s convener. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland told us in evidence ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
All too often, poor mental health and debt go hand in hand and lead to absolutely disastrous social consequences, both for the people who are immediately aff...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will take the intervention in a second. The Royal Edinburgh hospital is in my constituency—I am contacted by people there, but very often, it is quite far...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does Daniel Johnson agree, however, that at the end of this legislative process, people in Scotland who are in the distressing circumstances that we are outl...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Mr Kerr makes a valid point. In approaching this legislation, we need to ensure that we do the most that we can. If there are examples from elsewhere, in par...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the member recognise that if we were to expand those criteria, with which I think most of us would agree, the issue of resource would have to be addressed?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I was coming to that very point. Although I think that a threshold that includes all those who are undergoing mental health treatment would be far too low, a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind all members who seek to speak in the debate to ensure that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. We move to the open debate. 15:13
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill at stage 1, particularly as I am a member of the ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the member share the concerns that I and other people have expressed about the Government’s stated intention to create a public register of those who wo...
Colin Beattie SNP
I recognise the sensitivity of the public register, and there will be further debate and discussion on that. Other concerns exist that the mental health mo...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
It is a pleasure to follow Colin Beattie, who gave a considered and thoughtful speech that highlighted many issues of concern about the bill that I wish to r...
Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?