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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 06 February 2024

06 Feb 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Fraser, Murdo Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests: I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland, albeit not currently practising.

I echo the committee convener’s thanks to all those who gave evidence to the committee about the bill and I thank the Scottish Parliament information centre for its helpful background briefings and the committee clerks for their assistance during the preparation of our report. That report was agreed unanimously and there is very little political disagreement between committee members regarding our approach to the bill.

I am something of a veteran of committee consideration of bankruptcy legislation in this Parliament. In session 2, I sat on the committee that scrutinised the Bankruptcy and Diligence etc (Scotland) Act 2007 and, in session 4, the subsequent Bankruptcy and Debt Advice (Scotland) Act 2014. Here we are with yet another piece of bankruptcy legislation, which seeks to improve and update the law in an area where there is always a need for change.

Before I come to the detail of the bill that is before us, it is worth taking a moment to reflect on the wider policy background to bankruptcy law. The term “bankruptcy” is normally seen as a pejorative one, carrying negative connotations. Someone who is described as a “bankrupt” is often seen as having failed because they have not been able to meet their financial obligations. In reality, bankruptcy should be seen as something positive. Bankruptcy exists to provide both protection for individuals who fall into debt and relief from those debts. If the option of bankruptcy did not exist, people who find themselves in a situation where they have run up too many debts would never be able to escape and would be pursued indefinitely by their creditors. They would never have the chance to wipe the slate clean and start afresh.

That is what bankruptcy provides. Individuals can declare that they are unable to meet their financial obligations, a trustee will be appointed to administer their affairs and agree settlements with creditors and, after a set period of time—which stands at one year, in our current law—the debtor will be deemed to be free of those debts and able to resume control of his or her financial affairs. It is an acceptance in law that people make mistakes in life, that businesses sometimes fail, that no one should be permanently punished for that and that everyone deserves a second chance.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12070, in the name of Tom Arthur, on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I ask membe...
The Minister for Community Wealth and Public Finance (Tom Arthur) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to address the chamber on the general principles of the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill. The bill is not a big one...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Does Tom Arthur not recognise that the very fact that the bill is an enabling bill, rather than one that sets out criteria, mechanisms and thresholds, makes ...
Tom Arthur SNP
The member makes a fair point, which I will turn to as I progress through my prepared remarks. I commend the members of the mental health moratorium working...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The problem with the working group’s recommendations is that, if the Government eventually adopted them as its proposals, they would give people who are suff...
Tom Arthur SNP
I will come on to further detail of what we will take forward in the regulations. The detail of how the proposals will work in practice will be set out in ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Thank you. Members may wish to know that we have time in hand this afternoon, and that we hope to give back time for any interventions taken. 14:38
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Economy and Fair Work Committee in the role of convener in this stage 1 debate on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotla...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests: I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland, albeit not currently practising. I echo th...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Does Murdo Fraser agree that it would be beneficial for the overall culture of enterprise in this country if we had a less stigmatising approach to bankruptc...
Murdo Fraser Con
I totally agree with that interesting intervention. In the United States, successful entrepreneurs often fail in business for a number of times before they a...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does Murdo Fraser agree that there is an interesting contrast between public agencies and private businesses in the approaches that are being taken? The bank...
Murdo Fraser Con
Mr Johnson makes a very fair point. In the evidence that was given to the committee, some of the strongest-worded evidence against some of the additional pro...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser sets out the challenge very clearly. Is there not a concomitant risk that many debtors who are aware of the fact that mental health may provide ...
Murdo Fraser Con
Fergus Ewing, with his usual lawyerly background, makes a fair point about the potential for unintended consequences. I was pleased to note that, in his let...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
Yes, please go ahead, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
The question of the discharge of trustees was alluded to by the committee’s convener. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland told us in evidence ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
All too often, poor mental health and debt go hand in hand and lead to absolutely disastrous social consequences, both for the people who are immediately aff...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will take the intervention in a second. The Royal Edinburgh hospital is in my constituency—I am contacted by people there, but very often, it is quite far...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does Daniel Johnson agree, however, that at the end of this legislative process, people in Scotland who are in the distressing circumstances that we are outl...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Mr Kerr makes a valid point. In approaching this legislation, we need to ensure that we do the most that we can. If there are examples from elsewhere, in par...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the member recognise that if we were to expand those criteria, with which I think most of us would agree, the issue of resource would have to be addressed?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I was coming to that very point. Although I think that a threshold that includes all those who are undergoing mental health treatment would be far too low, a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind all members who seek to speak in the debate to ensure that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. We move to the open debate. 15:13
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate on the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill at stage 1, particularly as I am a member of the ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the member share the concerns that I and other people have expressed about the Government’s stated intention to create a public register of those who wo...
Colin Beattie SNP
I recognise the sensitivity of the public register, and there will be further debate and discussion on that. Other concerns exist that the mental health mo...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
It is a pleasure to follow Colin Beattie, who gave a considered and thoughtful speech that highlighted many issues of concern about the bill that I wish to r...
Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?