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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 January 2024

30 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
European Union
Adamson, Clare SNP Motherwell and Wishaw Watch on SPTV

I tried to intervene on Mr Rennie when he was making his argument about what we spent on the EU referendum. He forgets that we won that referendum in Scotland—we won it by a huge margin. Was 64 per cent not enough for him? Would 88 per cent of the vote in Scotland going for Europe have been enough? Mr Rennie argued that we did not do enough, but it is evident that the people of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU.

There was much furore last week when British negotiators walked away from the trade talks with Canada. Although concerns were raised on new segments by food producers and whisky companies, it was not reported that, if we had not left Europe, following a campaign based on lies and the othering of our European neighbours, our producers would be enjoying the comprehensive economic and trade agreement—CETA—which is a modern and progressive trade arrangement that offers the EU more and better opportunities in Canada.

I sit as convener of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee, and Donald Cameron and I sit as observers on behalf of the Scottish Parliament on the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly. The PPA is composed of a delegation of UK House of Commons and House of Lords representatives and members of the European Parliament. The Assembly has discussed on many occasions, and has made some progress on, a number of the post-Brexit concerns that have been raised in the chamber this afternoon.

The Windsor agreement brought some meeting of minds on those areas. We have back our participation in the Horizon and Copernicus programmes, which we gave up with Brexit. We have discussed youth mobility and exchange, which we gave up with Brexit. We have discussed touring artists and the burdens of multiple visas and cabotage, which did not apply before Brexit. It seems that we are spending our time picking and choosing to get back the very rights that—inconceivably—we gave up when the UK left the EU.

So, where is the big Brexit bonus? As has been shown in the chamber this afternoon, there just isn’t one. Brexit has led to our economy suffering from rising costs, borders to trade and an inability to recruit and retain valuable employees in our economy. Our European friends no longer enrich our communities in the way that they once did. Plans for energy interconnectors, security issues and unrest on the European continent and in Gaza all bring our world closer together, yet the Brexit disaster has left the UK isolated on the fringes of Europe. As I have said, the Scottish people did not want that. It happened against our will. Even when we tried to get some of the benefits that have been afforded to Northern Ireland—for very good and understandable reasons—that was denied to Scotland, so we no longer have access to the European free market.

The Royal Society of Edinburgh is conducting the Scotland-Europe initiative. A series of 10 events has now been held by the RSE as part of its project to examine the future relationship between the United Kingdom and Europe, which, as the RSE says, “remains unsettled.” At the same time, the RSE recognises that Europe itself

“is undergoing substantial change”,

and that we must look

“closer to home”

for

“distinct Scottish issues and options.”

In providing rigorous analysis of those issues, the project is drawing on academic research, examining the policy and institutional options for responding to some of the challenges, and engaging in dialogue with Government, business and civil society in Scotland. It is somewhat churlish to suggest that this, our country’s Parliament, is not an appropriate place to examine those very issues.

The Scottish Council on Global Affairs has been established. The University of Glasgow, the University of Edinburgh and the University of St Andrews are providing a non-partisan hub for expertise on international issues. Professor Phillips O’Brien, chair of strategic studies at the University of St Andrews, said:

“It’s time that Scotland had a rigorous, non-partisan, people-focussed Global Affairs institute that can bring together Scotland’s brilliant researchers with a range of groups from across society.”

The very best minds in our country are looking at our future and at Scotland’s place in Europe, which is the subject of the motion that we are discussing today. It is really important that we come to the subject with open minds and with a view to discussing all the ways forward for Scotland. We will disagree constitutionally, but we cannot ignore the fact that Brexit has been an absolute disaster for our country. We must all come together and look to the future and the options that are open to our country.

I believe that the best option is an independent Scotland and a return to the heart of European politics; others will have other ideas. Let us discuss the ideas rather than talk about the past and what people did in 1975. This is the future, and it is a future with Ukraine as a possible member of the European Union. We should remember what is happening in our world and look to Scotland’s future in that European Union, too.

15:06  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12004, in the name of Angus Robertson, on Scotland’s place in the European Union. I invite members who wi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
Tomorrow marks the fourth anniversary of Scotland being taken out of the European Union. Scotland was not only removed from the EU but forced out of the sing...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I think that the minister will be bored with his own speech, given that he has made the same one several times before. Nevertheless, has he drawn together an...
Angus Robertson SNP
Willie Rennie knows that the European Union single market is, as I think that I am right in saying, seven times larger than the United Kingdom’s. Unlike him,...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson SNP
I want to make a bit more progress on this point, but I will give way later to Mr Bibby. The EU market is seven times the size of the UK—almost 450 million...
Neil Bibby Lab
I am not sure what the Scottish National Party’s position on the customs union is, because, in 2019, during the Brexit votes, it did not vote in favour of a ...
Angus Robertson SNP
I agreed at that time that people should have a view and should be able to cast a vote in favour of the European Union. That was my support for there being a...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angus Robertson SNP
I am going to finish this point. We can continue down that road or we can seek to emulate the success of comparable independent countries in Europe that are ...
Alexander Stewart Con
We know that Scotland’s exports are three times those of the EU. The London School of Economics and Political Science centre for economic performance has tal...
Angus Robertson SNP
I noticed that Alexander Stewart was not prepared to reflect on the relative economic decline of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as clearly demo...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Members will wish to know that there is time in hand for interventions. We will be as generous as possible in that regard. I call Donald Cameron to speak to...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The title of this debate is “An independent Scotland in the EU”.
The Minister for Independence (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I just want to correct the record. That is not the title of the debate. It is “Scotland’s place in the European Union”. That will be an important point as th...
Donald Cameron Con
I thank Jamie Hepburn for that very important intervention. Here we are, yet again, debating a hypothetical wrapped in speculation inside a misconception, t...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Mr Cameron has listed a lot of worthy things that we would all like to do, but does he recognise that the Centre for European Reform has estimated that Brexi...
Donald Cameron Con
Of course, an independent Scotland would incur huge costs and, like many of his fellow party members, Kevin Stewart is incapable of recognising the severe ec...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary is a fan of fantasy football, as I am. If he is not, I encourage him to become one, because he would be better sp...
Angus Robertson SNP
When Mr Bibby intervened on me earlier, I asked him what the Scottish Labour Party’s position was. He was not able, or not prepared, to answer then, so will ...
Neil Bibby Lab
We will seek to fix the Tories’ Brexit mess. I will come to the details of how we want to have greater co-operation with our European partners. However, the...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Neil Bibby Lab
No—I have to make progress. People need change, and that process can start by booting out the Tories and electing a UK Labour Government. Labour has set o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
I call Willie Rennie to speak to and move amendment S6M-12004.3. 14:52
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I always listen very carefully to the cabinet secretary. However, the more I listened to him this afternoon, the more I heard echoes of Jacob Rees-Mogg. That...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
No, not just now. I am just making this very powerful argument. Laughter. I remember that Alex Salmond was more obsessed with attacking the UK Government t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:00
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I tried to intervene on Mr Rennie when he was making his argument about what we spent on the EU referendum. He forgets that we won that referendum in Scotlan...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The last time I debated one of the prospectus for independence papers, we were discussing the creation of a modern constitution for an independent Scotland. ...