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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 January 2024

30 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
European Union

I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary is a fan of fantasy football, as I am. If he is not, I encourage him to become one, because he would be better spending 10 minutes of a weekend playing that fantasy game than subjecting the rest of us to hours of today’s exercise in fantasy politics.

Hours of valuable parliamentary time have been taken up with a debate about a paper that few have read and even fewer are interested in. Such papers do not focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland, are a waste of taxpayers’ money and do not even convince the SNP’s supporters. It is therefore a further waste of parliamentary time to debate such a paper today.

Members do not need to take my word for it. Even the former SNP cabinet secretary Alex Neil said recently that the Scottish Government needs to

“ditch the crap”

and

“Get focused entirely on the people’s priorities by delivering better services and supporting the Scottish people”.

He said that the SNP should stop

“constantly contemplating our navels”.

I agree with him on that.

The debate is a transparent and desperate distraction from the SNP’s mounting political problems and from the urgent issues that matter to the people of Scotland. The truth is that the Parliament and the Scottish people do not need a made-up debate on Europe. If we are concerned, as the motion states, about what best serves Scotland’s economic, social and political future, we should be debating more pressing matters.

We should be debating the cost of living crisis that continues to afflict communities and families across our country; the winter crisis and the spiralling waiting lists in our NHS; and the outrageous and savage cuts that the Scottish Government has inflicted on local councils and the degrading of our public services.

At a time when the Scottish Government is spending nearly £2 million on the production of the “Building a New Scotland” papers, day centres for adults with learning disabilities in Renfrewshire are under threat of closure and merger as a result of the Government’s budget cuts. Our most vulnerable adults face losing lifeline services on which they rely, while the Government wastes vital resources on that charade.

Recent weeks have revealed—as Donald Cameron mentioned—this Government’s mass deletion, on an industrial scale, of WhatsApp messages. That is a clear attempt to thwart the work of the UK Covid inquiry, and a massive betrayal of Covid bereaved families and the Scottish public. Why are we not debating that?

It is not just WhatsApps that have disappeared; so, too, has trust in the Scottish Government. We know why we are not debating those issues. It is because this Government, rather than face its own record, its own failings and its dearth of ideas, seeks to engage in a transparent diversion, and in yet another desperate attempt to pretend to its own supporters that it has a plan when it does not. It is an attempt to create what we might even call a good old-fashioned rammy, in order to breathe some life into the SNP’s dwindling poll numbers.

It is disappointing. Like Donald Cameron, I have considerable respect for Mr Robertson and Mr Hepburn. I think that they are better than this, but the debate is a symptom of a party that has lost its way after 17 years in government. I worked constructively with Mr Hepburn when he was Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills. He did an important job in that brief and, in my view, he did it well. Now, however, he is, unfortunately, in a non-job in which he prepares glorified talking points for non-debates.

Just a few weeks ago, I had a constructive meeting with the cabinet secretary in which we discussed a range of useful ideas and issues in relation to matters affecting the culture sector. That is what the cabinet secretary, and all ministers, should be doing: using their powers to effect real change now. It is a great responsibility and a great privilege to hold those positions, but doing stuff like this is a dereliction of duty.

Just a few weeks ago, the cabinet secretary was praising the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee for its unanimous report on devolution post-Brexit. He knows that the committee is, as we speak, embarking on an inquiry into the trade and co-operation agreement with the EU. If we want to debate Europe, surely we should do so on publication of the committee’s report. We should let the committee do its work and then debate the issue when we are in full and proper possession of the facts and evidence.

Nevertheless, here we are, and we should be clear: the Tory Government has made a complete mess of Brexit and of much else. Its botched Brexit has left no one—not even Brexit supporters—happy. It has burned bridges with our allies and partners, and left businesses and those who trade and deal with Europe drowning in a sea of red tape. It has presided over economic calamity and political chaos. That is a dismal and disgraceful record.

The answer, however, is not for us to have yet more years of social division, constitutional upheaval and costly economic damage. Brexit should act as a warning of the consequences of withdrawing oneself from an economic and political union for the sake of a constitutional obsession, in particular one that does not command the support of the majority of Scotland’s people.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12004, in the name of Angus Robertson, on Scotland’s place in the European Union. I invite members who wi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
Tomorrow marks the fourth anniversary of Scotland being taken out of the European Union. Scotland was not only removed from the EU but forced out of the sing...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I think that the minister will be bored with his own speech, given that he has made the same one several times before. Nevertheless, has he drawn together an...
Angus Robertson SNP
Willie Rennie knows that the European Union single market is, as I think that I am right in saying, seven times larger than the United Kingdom’s. Unlike him,...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson SNP
I want to make a bit more progress on this point, but I will give way later to Mr Bibby. The EU market is seven times the size of the UK—almost 450 million...
Neil Bibby Lab
I am not sure what the Scottish National Party’s position on the customs union is, because, in 2019, during the Brexit votes, it did not vote in favour of a ...
Angus Robertson SNP
I agreed at that time that people should have a view and should be able to cast a vote in favour of the European Union. That was my support for there being a...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angus Robertson SNP
I am going to finish this point. We can continue down that road or we can seek to emulate the success of comparable independent countries in Europe that are ...
Alexander Stewart Con
We know that Scotland’s exports are three times those of the EU. The London School of Economics and Political Science centre for economic performance has tal...
Angus Robertson SNP
I noticed that Alexander Stewart was not prepared to reflect on the relative economic decline of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as clearly demo...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Members will wish to know that there is time in hand for interventions. We will be as generous as possible in that regard. I call Donald Cameron to speak to...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The title of this debate is “An independent Scotland in the EU”.
The Minister for Independence (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I just want to correct the record. That is not the title of the debate. It is “Scotland’s place in the European Union”. That will be an important point as th...
Donald Cameron Con
I thank Jamie Hepburn for that very important intervention. Here we are, yet again, debating a hypothetical wrapped in speculation inside a misconception, t...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Mr Cameron has listed a lot of worthy things that we would all like to do, but does he recognise that the Centre for European Reform has estimated that Brexi...
Donald Cameron Con
Of course, an independent Scotland would incur huge costs and, like many of his fellow party members, Kevin Stewart is incapable of recognising the severe ec...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary is a fan of fantasy football, as I am. If he is not, I encourage him to become one, because he would be better sp...
Angus Robertson SNP
When Mr Bibby intervened on me earlier, I asked him what the Scottish Labour Party’s position was. He was not able, or not prepared, to answer then, so will ...
Neil Bibby Lab
We will seek to fix the Tories’ Brexit mess. I will come to the details of how we want to have greater co-operation with our European partners. However, the...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Neil Bibby Lab
No—I have to make progress. People need change, and that process can start by booting out the Tories and electing a UK Labour Government. Labour has set o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
I call Willie Rennie to speak to and move amendment S6M-12004.3. 14:52
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I always listen very carefully to the cabinet secretary. However, the more I listened to him this afternoon, the more I heard echoes of Jacob Rees-Mogg. That...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
No, not just now. I am just making this very powerful argument. Laughter. I remember that Alex Salmond was more obsessed with attacking the UK Government t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:00
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I tried to intervene on Mr Rennie when he was making his argument about what we spent on the EU referendum. He forgets that we won that referendum in Scotlan...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The last time I debated one of the prospectus for independence papers, we were discussing the creation of a modern constitution for an independent Scotland. ...