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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 January 2024

30 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
European Union
Cameron, Donald Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I thank Jamie Hepburn for that very important intervention.

Here we are, yet again, debating a hypothetical wrapped in speculation inside a misconception, to misquote Winston Churchill. As the Covid inquiry takes evidence at this very moment about the conduct of the SNP Government, its ministers and its civil servants, and tries to get to the bottom of what went on during the pandemic, what does the SNP Government come to this chamber to debate? It comes to debate the hypothetical question of an independent Scotland joining the EU.

It is very tempting to take the bait. I must confess that I always enjoy debating with Angus Robertson and Jamie Hepburn. They give as good as they get, and they manage to do so with grace and humour.

It is tempting to point out that about a third of SNP voters supported Brexit and voted that way. More than a million Scots voted to leave the European Union, including SNP luminaries such as Alex Neil, no less.

It is tempting to point out that great minds such as Alex Neil and many other nationalists see that it is simply illogical for those in the independence movement to, on the one hand, complain about the shackles of Westminster and, on the other, support being chained to Brussels.

It is tempting to point out that there are those in the independence movement, such as the former First Minister, Alex Salmond, and his Alba Party, who recognise that one viable path for an independent Scotland would be membership of the European Free Trade Association instead of the EU.

Those are all rabbit holes that I am very tempted to go down, but I will not, because, rather like Alice in Wonderland, who went down the original rabbit hole, to do so would be to enter the realms of fiction and fantasy.

Willie Rennie was right when he said that the cabinet secretary might be getting bored with his own speech, because he has made it so many times before—we have all made these speeches many times before.

Back in the real world, there are many more pressing problems that the people of Scotland want to see addressed, such as the fact that there are nearly 830,000 patients across Scotland waiting for national health service treatment. There are problems such as the fact that rural schools are twice as likely to be in poor condition as urban schools. The Highland Council area has the poorest school estate in Scotland, and it also happens to be bottom of the league table for literacy and numeracy. There are problems such as the fact that more than 71,000 violent crimes were recorded last year, which is the highest total since 2011-12. Those are the issues that people really care about, and they are getting worse, not better, because of this Government’s narrow focus on the constitution.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-12004, in the name of Angus Robertson, on Scotland’s place in the European Union. I invite members who wi...
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
Tomorrow marks the fourth anniversary of Scotland being taken out of the European Union. Scotland was not only removed from the EU but forced out of the sing...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I think that the minister will be bored with his own speech, given that he has made the same one several times before. Nevertheless, has he drawn together an...
Angus Robertson SNP
Willie Rennie knows that the European Union single market is, as I think that I am right in saying, seven times larger than the United Kingdom’s. Unlike him,...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson SNP
I want to make a bit more progress on this point, but I will give way later to Mr Bibby. The EU market is seven times the size of the UK—almost 450 million...
Neil Bibby Lab
I am not sure what the Scottish National Party’s position on the customs union is, because, in 2019, during the Brexit votes, it did not vote in favour of a ...
Angus Robertson SNP
I agreed at that time that people should have a view and should be able to cast a vote in favour of the European Union. That was my support for there being a...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angus Robertson SNP
I am going to finish this point. We can continue down that road or we can seek to emulate the success of comparable independent countries in Europe that are ...
Alexander Stewart Con
We know that Scotland’s exports are three times those of the EU. The London School of Economics and Political Science centre for economic performance has tal...
Angus Robertson SNP
I noticed that Alexander Stewart was not prepared to reflect on the relative economic decline of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as clearly demo...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Members will wish to know that there is time in hand for interventions. We will be as generous as possible in that regard. I call Donald Cameron to speak to...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The title of this debate is “An independent Scotland in the EU”.
The Minister for Independence (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I just want to correct the record. That is not the title of the debate. It is “Scotland’s place in the European Union”. That will be an important point as th...
Donald Cameron Con
I thank Jamie Hepburn for that very important intervention. Here we are, yet again, debating a hypothetical wrapped in speculation inside a misconception, t...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Mr Cameron has listed a lot of worthy things that we would all like to do, but does he recognise that the Centre for European Reform has estimated that Brexi...
Donald Cameron Con
Of course, an independent Scotland would incur huge costs and, like many of his fellow party members, Kevin Stewart is incapable of recognising the severe ec...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary is a fan of fantasy football, as I am. If he is not, I encourage him to become one, because he would be better sp...
Angus Robertson SNP
When Mr Bibby intervened on me earlier, I asked him what the Scottish Labour Party’s position was. He was not able, or not prepared, to answer then, so will ...
Neil Bibby Lab
We will seek to fix the Tories’ Brexit mess. I will come to the details of how we want to have greater co-operation with our European partners. However, the...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Neil Bibby Lab
No—I have to make progress. People need change, and that process can start by booting out the Tories and electing a UK Labour Government. Labour has set o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
I call Willie Rennie to speak to and move amendment S6M-12004.3. 14:52
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I always listen very carefully to the cabinet secretary. However, the more I listened to him this afternoon, the more I heard echoes of Jacob Rees-Mogg. That...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
No, not just now. I am just making this very powerful argument. Laughter. I remember that Alex Salmond was more obsessed with attacking the UK Government t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:00
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I tried to intervene on Mr Rennie when he was making his argument about what we spent on the EU referendum. He forgets that we won that referendum in Scotlan...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The last time I debated one of the prospectus for independence papers, we were discussing the creation of a modern constitution for an independent Scotland. ...