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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 09 January 2024

09 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee Report: “How Devolution is Changing Post-EU”

John Swinney makes his point clearly and persuasively. I am really keen that, given that the report was agreed unanimously—all the political parties were in agreement—we hear those points echoed from all sides of the chamber.

I have heard in some questions at various points during this session of Parliament a sense that the UK and Scottish Governments are jointly responsible for there being bad intergovernmental relations. However, it is crystal clear to us that the problem that we are dealing with is the UK Government’s approach. We need the other political parties in the chamber to support the Scottish Government to ensure that we can support the devolution settlement.

To reinforce John Swinney’s point, we, as parliamentarians, have a shared responsibility for protecting the integrity of this institution, which has served the people of Scotland for more than a quarter of a century. After all, we are here because the people of Scotland voted for this Parliament. It is their mandate that has given us democratic self-government in Scotland, and there is no mandate or justification for the steady erosion of the devolution settlement that we have seen since the Brexit referendum.

The committee’s report recognises the severe strain that the operation of the Sewel convention has been under since Brexit. It is essential for the effectiveness of the convention that it is scrupulously observed when there are policy disagreements between the Scottish and UK Governments, especially on matters of significance. The opposite has, in fact, occurred, with the convention being set aside in areas in which there are differences between the Scottish and UK Governments, and the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament are being adversely affected, most notably by the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. That is precisely the circumstance in which the convention was intended to operate as a safeguard for devolution.

Until 2018, we saw scrupulous observance of the convention by UK Governments of all stripes. Since then, however, the convention has, in the words of the Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford, “withered on the vine”. It is worth noting that routine breaches of the Sewel convention are a comparatively recent development. The convention was strictly observed—barring one quickly rectified error—for most of the first two decades of devolution. From there being no breaches between 1999 and 2018, the convention has now been breached 11 times. “Not normally” now appears to be emptied of all meaning.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11698, in the name of Clare Adamson, on behalf of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture ...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Presiding Officer, could you confirm how much time I have for my opening speech?
The Presiding Officer NPA
You have 12 minutes.
Clare Adamson SNP
Thank you very much. I put on record my thanks to our committee clerks, colleagues from across other legislatures and all those who gave evidence to our inqu...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP
I am enjoying Clare Adamson’s thoughtful and substantial speech. Has the committee considered what the respective roles of the United Kingdom Government and ...
Clare Adamson SNP
That is one of the aspects that we have considered. The committee looked at how the common frameworks are developed, and we noted that there is a lack of tra...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Angus Robertson. You have up to 11 minutes, cabinet secretary. 14:51
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
Thank you very much. Happy new year to you, Presiding Officer, and to members right across the chamber. Like Clare Adamson, I am delighted to participate in...
John Swinney SNP
Before the cabinet secretary develops his argument, I wonder whether I could take him back to his opening argument about the actions of the public in Scotlan...
Angus Robertson SNP
John Swinney makes his point clearly and persuasively. I am really keen that, given that the report was agreed unanimously—all the political parties were in ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Is that not what the convener was seeking earlier in relation to the definition of “not normally”? In the period up to 2018, the only breach was an error—tha...
Angus Robertson SNP
Indeed, it is. I encourage the member and other colleagues who have views on how governance in the UK might be improved to share them. I believe that the is...
John Swinney SNP
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson SNP
I ask Mr Swinney to forgive me, as I will overrun if I take an intervention at this stage. The committee’s report states: “It is essential that we have the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I can confirm to members that we have no time in hand for this afternoon’s debate, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations. 15:03
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. At the outset, I state that the Scottish Conservatives are clear about the importa...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alexander Stewart Con
I want to make a little progress, but I will come back to the member. Philip Rycroft told the committee that “you have to see Brexit as a break point in al...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member said that the post-Brexit period was a test for intergovernmental relations and democracy. Has the UK Government passed that test or failed it?
Alexander Stewart Con
That is a good question to ask, because, as I said, there has been conflict and it continues. That period is still on-going, and we need to look at what we c...
John Swinney SNP
Will Alexander Stewart give way?
Alexander Stewart Con
No, not at the moment. The report also sets out a possible vision for tackling some of those challenges. It received input from the UK Government and the Sc...
John Swinney SNP
Will Mr Stewart give his opinion on the question that I put to the convener about whether there should be changes to the intergovernmental frameworks to enab...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Alexander Stewart.
Alexander Stewart Con
The convener partly answered Mr Swinney’s question about how that would happen. There has been and continues to be a need for the UK Government to understand...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Although I always encourage interventions, I urge members to try to keep them as concise as possible. I call Neil Bibby. 15:12
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I wish you and every member across the chamber a very happy new year. I join the convener of the Constitution, Europe, Externa...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Bibby made the important point that two additional tranches of powers have been allocated to this Parliament. I would contend—I think that Mr Bibby would ...
Neil Bibby Lab
I will come on to that. There are clearly concerns about how devolution has been undermined in recent years post-Brexit. In terms of the democratic way forwa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I want you to close.