Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 09 January 2024
09 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee Report: “How Devolution is Changing Post-EU”
Before the cabinet secretary develops his argument, I wonder whether I could take him back to his opening argument about the actions of the public in Scotland in supporting the devolved settlement in the referendum of 1997. We risk losing sight of the significance of the democratic consent that was given to the settlement in 1997, which in many ways was reinforced—much against my wishes—in the referendum in 2014. I commend the committee members for what they have said in the report about the attack that has been made on devolution, and I point out that at no stage has the consent of the public in Scotland been sought for those changes. Is the cabinet secretary concerned about the implications of that for the democratic consent of the public in Scotland that was given in 1997, which has been disregarded in the period since the referendum in 2016?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11698, in the name of Clare Adamson, on behalf of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture ...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, could you confirm how much time I have for my opening speech?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
You have 12 minutes.
Clare Adamson
SNP
Thank you very much. I put on record my thanks to our committee clerks, colleagues from across other legislatures and all those who gave evidence to our inqu...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
I am enjoying Clare Adamson’s thoughtful and substantial speech. Has the committee considered what the respective roles of the United Kingdom Government and ...
Clare Adamson
SNP
That is one of the aspects that we have considered. The committee looked at how the common frameworks are developed, and we noted that there is a lack of tra...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Angus Robertson. You have up to 11 minutes, cabinet secretary. 14:51
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)
SNP
Thank you very much. Happy new year to you, Presiding Officer, and to members right across the chamber. Like Clare Adamson, I am delighted to participate in...
John Swinney
SNP
Before the cabinet secretary develops his argument, I wonder whether I could take him back to his opening argument about the actions of the public in Scotlan...
Angus Robertson
SNP
John Swinney makes his point clearly and persuasively. I am really keen that, given that the report was agreed unanimously—all the political parties were in ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Is that not what the convener was seeking earlier in relation to the definition of “not normally”? In the period up to 2018, the only breach was an error—tha...
Angus Robertson
SNP
Indeed, it is. I encourage the member and other colleagues who have views on how governance in the UK might be improved to share them. I believe that the is...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson
SNP
I ask Mr Swinney to forgive me, as I will overrun if I take an intervention at this stage. The committee’s report states: “It is essential that we have the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
I can confirm to members that we have no time in hand for this afternoon’s debate, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations. 15:03
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I am delighted to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. At the outset, I state that the Scottish Conservatives are clear about the importa...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alexander Stewart
Con
I want to make a little progress, but I will come back to the member. Philip Rycroft told the committee that “you have to see Brexit as a break point in al...
Kate Forbes
SNP
The member said that the post-Brexit period was a test for intergovernmental relations and democracy. Has the UK Government passed that test or failed it?
Alexander Stewart
Con
That is a good question to ask, because, as I said, there has been conflict and it continues. That period is still on-going, and we need to look at what we c...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Alexander Stewart give way?
Alexander Stewart
Con
No, not at the moment. The report also sets out a possible vision for tackling some of those challenges. It received input from the UK Government and the Sc...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Mr Stewart give his opinion on the question that I put to the convener about whether there should be changes to the intergovernmental frameworks to enab...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I call Alexander Stewart.
Alexander Stewart
Con
The convener partly answered Mr Swinney’s question about how that would happen. There has been and continues to be a need for the UK Government to understand...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Although I always encourage interventions, I urge members to try to keep them as concise as possible. I call Neil Bibby. 15:12
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I wish you and every member across the chamber a very happy new year. I join the convener of the Constitution, Europe, Externa...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Bibby made the important point that two additional tranches of powers have been allocated to this Parliament. I would contend—I think that Mr Bibby would ...
Neil Bibby
Lab
I will come on to that. There are clearly concerns about how devolution has been undermined in recent years post-Brexit. In terms of the democratic way forwa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I want you to close.