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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 09 January 2024

09 Jan 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee Report: “How Devolution is Changing Post-EU”
Adamson, Clare SNP Motherwell and Wishaw Watch on SPTV

Thank you very much. I put on record my thanks to our committee clerks, colleagues from across other legislatures and all those who gave evidence to our inquiry. I welcome the opportunity to open this afternoon’s debate on behalf of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee on its report, “How Devolution is Changing Post-EU”.

The report is the third in a series of significant reports that the committee has published on the constitutional changes arising from the United Kingdom’s having left the European Union. It is an important report for the Parliament that builds on our previous work on the UK internal market and the impact of Brexit on devolution. I thank my committee colleagues for their constructive and consensual approach and their perseverance in dealing with some highly complex and technical issues.

It might be useful for me to briefly remind members of the background and context that informed our work in producing the report. While the UK was part of the EU, there was little regulatory divergence within the UK due to the statutory requirement to comply with EU law in areas such as animal health, food safety and the environment. Outside the EU, that statutory requirement no longer applies in Scotland. Consequently, much higher levels of regulatory divergence internally within Great Britain and the UK and between GB and the EU are now a possibility. Given the Windsor framework, Northern Ireland has a different set of rules.

The key question for us as parliamentarians is what impact the new constitutional arrangements are having on our core legislative and scrutiny functions. Where does responsibility now sit for making law that was previously made in Brussels? Who decides whether UK-wide legislation covering a devolved area is appropriate? How do the public, businesses and other stakeholders know which Parliament and Government they should engage with? What happens if there is regulatory divergence between England, Scotland and Wales in the context of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020? If there is regulatory divergence, how does business keep updated on what regulations apply to it?

There are many other questions that we could ask, but that should give colleagues a flavour of the complexities that are involved. If, as legislators, we find that daunting, how can we improve public understanding of the changes in our constitutional arrangements? For example, what about raising awareness among small businesses that wish to expand and export to new markets? What about an environmental lobbyist that seeks to allocate limited resources in influencing the legislative process?

We examined those issues, and our report focuses on four main areas: intergovernmental relations; common frameworks; the Sewel convention; and delegated powers. I will focus on the first three areas, and the deputy convener will focus on delegated powers in his closing speech.

The committee notes the view of our adviser, Professor Keating, that there is now

“a complex landscape of intergovernmental mechanisms, which has grown incrementally rather than following from a clear constitutional design.”

We note that there was

“considerable clarity, consistency and consensus in how the regulatory environment was managed within the UK prior to EU-exit. After EU-exit there has been significant disagreement between the devolved institutions and the UK Government regarding how the regulatory environment should be managed within the UK.”

The committee also notes that that

“lack of consensus, clarity and consistency ... has considerable consequences for the effectiveness”

of this Parliament in carrying out our core scrutiny and legislative functions.

Further, the committee notes:

“Without consensus at an intergovernmental level in areas such as Common Frameworks and the use of delegated powers by UK Ministers in devolved areas, there is a significant blockage to effective parliamentary scrutiny. For example, with regards to transparency and the timing and level of information provided to Parliament.

But even where there is consensus at an intergovernmental level there remains a risk that the Scottish Parliament’s core functions are diluted. As we have noted previously the increased significance of intergovernmental relations within a shared governance space raises substantial challenges for parliamentary scrutiny.”

We consider that those challenges are structural and systemic, and are not just a consequence of political disagreements between Governments. Consequently, we recommend the need for a new memorandum of understanding and supplementary agreements between the UK Government and the devolved Governments, which should specifically address how devolution now works outside the EU. That should be based on a clear constitutional design, including consideration of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, and it should give us more clarity.

I turn to the consideration of common frameworks. We noted that there appears to be a consensus among the UK Government and the devolved Governments that common frameworks provide an effective mechanism to manage regulatory divergence within the UK internal market. The committee’s view is that there needs to be much greater clarity around how regulatory divergence, which is a key principle that underpins devolved settlements, will be managed through the common frameworks programme. In particular, there needs to be clarity around how the market access principles of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 are intended to work in those circumstances.

We therefore believe that there is a need to re-articulate the definition and principles of the frameworks in the light of experience to date and the new constitutional landscape.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11698, in the name of Clare Adamson, on behalf of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture ...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Presiding Officer, could you confirm how much time I have for my opening speech?
The Presiding Officer NPA
You have 12 minutes.
Clare Adamson SNP
Thank you very much. I put on record my thanks to our committee clerks, colleagues from across other legislatures and all those who gave evidence to our inqu...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP) SNP
I am enjoying Clare Adamson’s thoughtful and substantial speech. Has the committee considered what the respective roles of the United Kingdom Government and ...
Clare Adamson SNP
That is one of the aspects that we have considered. The committee looked at how the common frameworks are developed, and we noted that there is a lack of tra...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Angus Robertson. You have up to 11 minutes, cabinet secretary. 14:51
The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson) SNP
Thank you very much. Happy new year to you, Presiding Officer, and to members right across the chamber. Like Clare Adamson, I am delighted to participate in...
John Swinney SNP
Before the cabinet secretary develops his argument, I wonder whether I could take him back to his opening argument about the actions of the public in Scotlan...
Angus Robertson SNP
John Swinney makes his point clearly and persuasively. I am really keen that, given that the report was agreed unanimously—all the political parties were in ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Is that not what the convener was seeking earlier in relation to the definition of “not normally”? In the period up to 2018, the only breach was an error—tha...
Angus Robertson SNP
Indeed, it is. I encourage the member and other colleagues who have views on how governance in the UK might be improved to share them. I believe that the is...
John Swinney SNP
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angus Robertson SNP
I ask Mr Swinney to forgive me, as I will overrun if I take an intervention at this stage. The committee’s report states: “It is essential that we have the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I can confirm to members that we have no time in hand for this afternoon’s debate, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations. 15:03
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. At the outset, I state that the Scottish Conservatives are clear about the importa...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alexander Stewart Con
I want to make a little progress, but I will come back to the member. Philip Rycroft told the committee that “you have to see Brexit as a break point in al...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member said that the post-Brexit period was a test for intergovernmental relations and democracy. Has the UK Government passed that test or failed it?
Alexander Stewart Con
That is a good question to ask, because, as I said, there has been conflict and it continues. That period is still on-going, and we need to look at what we c...
John Swinney SNP
Will Alexander Stewart give way?
Alexander Stewart Con
No, not at the moment. The report also sets out a possible vision for tackling some of those challenges. It received input from the UK Government and the Sc...
John Swinney SNP
Will Mr Stewart give his opinion on the question that I put to the convener about whether there should be changes to the intergovernmental frameworks to enab...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Alexander Stewart.
Alexander Stewart Con
The convener partly answered Mr Swinney’s question about how that would happen. There has been and continues to be a need for the UK Government to understand...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Although I always encourage interventions, I urge members to try to keep them as concise as possible. I call Neil Bibby. 15:12
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I wish you and every member across the chamber a very happy new year. I join the convener of the Constitution, Europe, Externa...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Bibby made the important point that two additional tranches of powers have been allocated to this Parliament. I would contend—I think that Mr Bibby would ...
Neil Bibby Lab
I will come on to that. There are clearly concerns about how devolution has been undermined in recent years post-Brexit. In terms of the democratic way forwa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I want you to close.