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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 13 December 2023

13 Dec 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Education
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

No, I simply cannot accept that, because we are measuring maths, science and reading. We can measure the trends over a very long time and there are, in fact, extremely worrying trends that we all have a duty to address.

Let us be absolutely clear that this is not the fault of our young people, who, like young people everywhere, have had to deal with unprecedented challenges in the past few years. Nor is it a failure of our teachers and their staff, who continue to do absolutely everything to deliver in a context that is far from ideal.

As The Courier put it,

“The report is ... a damning indictment of the failure of successive education secretaries to get to grips with their most important task—ensuring every Scottish child gets the best possible education”.

They are education secretaries including John Swinney—who apparently dare not even come to the chamber today—and Fiona Hyslop, Angela Constance and Shirley-Anne Somerville, who succeeded him. He told Parliament—without evidence—in 2021, that he had “cautious optimism” that standards were improving, shortly before he abandoned an education bill. The situation culminates most egregiously in the Scottish Government’s press release last week in response to the PISA figures—which showed Scotland’s worst-ever performance in science, reading and maths—that

“Scottish education maintains international standing”.

I listened very carefully to the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills’ statement yesterday. I was, in fact, encouraged by much of the tone and by the acknowledgement of previous failures. It sounded as though we finally had a Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills who would take responsibility. That is why I was rather surprised and disappointed by—and will not vote for—the amendment in her name. Rather than acknowledging and dealing with PISA, as she seemed ready to do yesterday, her amendment suggests that yesterday’s figures trump PISA—a stance that Professor Lindsay Paterson claims is

“either disingenuous or evidence of dismaying statistical ignorance.”

This starts with acknowledging the issues, with not seeking to slopey shoulder the blame, and with taking responsibility for the solutions. The solution is about addressing issues including the epidemic of violence, ill-discipline and poor behaviour that was also revealed by the PISA results, which show that Scotland has more frequently bullied students and that our young people are two times more likely than the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average to witness a fight at school.

In that context, the “Behaviour in Scottish schools: research report 2023” last month was clear that perceived lack of consequences for pupils who frequently engage in disruptive behaviour leaves educators unsupported. By failing to teach those who are perpetrating such behaviour that life has consequences, and by suggesting that abuse and violence will not lead to sanctions, we fail them as much as we fail the victims, whether they are teachers who are going off sick or pupils who are absenting themselves from school after being disrespected or verbally or physically assaulted.

We need boundaries and genuine consequences for perpetrators. Perhaps, as some commentators suggest, there should be immediate removal of perpetrators from the classroom. There should be proper resource put towards educational psychologists and the like to work with perpetrators to see whether they can be returned and helped to learn, and to ensure that teachers can teach and other children can learn. There should not be an extraordinary policy such as that which Fife Council seems to have adopted just last month, part of which states that school bullies should not experience negative consequences or punishment due to their behaviour.

The situation means that we need to look again at what is happening with the curriculum for excellence and to address the question why—as the University of Stirling has found—since its introduction in 2013 there has been a decrease in the number of subjects that are being entered into and studied by fourth-year pupils. It also means that we must look at genuine vocational studies so that those whose skills and talents lie somewhere other than the academic route are properly catered for. None of that is news.

In 2021, Shirley-Anne Somerville said:

“10 years on from CfE being introduced, it is right and proper that we review how it is being implemented. We accept in full all 12 recommendations from the OECD.”

However, how many recommendations have been achieved remains somewhat questionable. Perhaps the cabinet secretary will assist with that later.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11635, in the name of Liam Kerr, on improving the performance of the Scottish education system. I invite ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Last week saw the publication of the programme for international student assessment, or PISA, statistics. They are a four-yearly analysis of almost 700,000 1...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
I agree with Liam Kerr that what is measured matters. Does he therefore accept that statistics such as those from PISA, although they are important, make ver...
Liam Kerr Con
No, I simply cannot accept that, because we are measuring maths, science and reading. We can measure the trends over a very long time and there are, in fact,...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Does Liam Kerr agree with the conclusion that the OECD reached in 2021, that curriculum for excellence was the right approach and the failing has been in imp...
Liam Kerr Con
Yes, I do. The chamber is on board with the principle of curriculum for excellence, but implementation, particularly under the current Government, has all to...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I hear from teachers that the incidence of classroom violence is driving them out of the education system. That is why we are losing so many valued high-qual...
Liam Kerr Con
That is right. It is certainly what I hear, and I am sure that it is what all members hear. Perhaps the cabinet secretary will elaborate on why reform of Ed...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I am grateful to the Conservatives for bringing this debate on Scottish education to the chamber. There have been a number of updates to Parliament in recent...
Martin Whitfield Lab
The cabinet secretary is right to trust our teachers. They are graduate professionals who know their job and, more importantly, know the children they teach....
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I will come to the PISA results, which I spoke to yesterday in my update to Parliament. The PISA results are important in giving the whole picture of progres...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
What is the reason for the considerable gap between the PISA results and the ACEL results?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
They are two different data sets. The ACEL results are predicated on teacher judgment and the PISA results are predicated on survey data. That means that, if...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I would like to make some progress, if the member does not mind. In the same cohort, 93 per cent left school with one or more qualifications at SCQF level 4...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am happy to do so. Presiding Officer, can I check whether there is time in hand?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you a little bit of time back.
Liam Kerr Con
Surely what PISA is telling us is not that, in the past few years, Scotland has somehow flatlined. It is saying that, over a considerable period, there has b...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am reiterating—I have stated this previously—that, based on the 2022 survey results, our results in maths and science remain similar to the OECD average. I...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the minister give way?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I would like to make some progress, and I believe that I have no time in hand.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I gave you nine minutes; I can probably give you 10 minutes.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On Monday, the Cabinet visited Haddington for a public meeting. As George Adam observed following the meeting, the best and mo...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome this debate because it comes at a time when there is a consensus in education that enough is enough. In the past week, a range of statistics have l...
Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Do I have time, Deputy Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I am afraid that the member is just concluding.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I am sorry. I have only half a minute left. The situation cannot go on. We need to create a system that empowers young people to reach their potential. That...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Unfortunately, we do not really have any time in hand this afternoon, due to the pressure of business at the back end of the afternoon, so I require members ...