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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 November 2023

15 Nov 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Ministerial Code (First Minister and Deputy First Minister)
Ross, Douglas Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I absolutely agree with the member, who chairs the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee in Parliament. Let us not forget that previous SNP Government ministers, including previous SNP First Ministers, have referred themselves to the independent adviser. I have to question why the current First Minister and Deputy First Minister are unwilling to do so.

In November last year, the United Kingdom Covid inquiry wrote to the SNP Government to ask:

“To what extent was there informal or private communication about significant decision-making? For example, were there WhatsApp groups (or other forms of group chats) which key decision-makers used”?

Then, in February this year, it asked for

“any communications relating to key decisions, including internal and external emails, text messages or WhatsApp messages (on Scottish Government and private or personal devices)”.

I will give way to any SNP member who can argue that that does not constitute a request for the messages—I will give way to any of them—but I see none. No SNP member is able to stand up in this Parliament and defend their Government’s argument that it had not been asked for the messages. That is because it was not a request for a summary or a minute of the decisions that were made but a request for the actual messages. The silence from the SNP members suggests that they know it.

Let us be clear: that request was made not only once in February, but again in March, July, August, September and October. Again, we are in a debate, so I will give way to any SNP representative who, having heard about all those requests, can claim that there was no requirement for the Government to hand over messages. I say that not just to SNP back benchers—I will give way to the Deputy First Minister if she would like to defend her case that that was not a request for messages. Again, I see nothing—not a single member is willing to do so.

We know that on each of those occasions, bar the last one, the messages were withheld. Jamie Dawson KC, the counsel to the inquiry, said this three weeks ago:

“The Scottish Government has provided the inquiry with no WhatsApp or other informal messaging material, either in its own possession or in the possession of”

individuals.

We have a situation where nine months ago, the Scottish Government was asked for WhatsApp messages to be provided to the inquiry, but they were handed over only last week. On 31 October, though, the Deputy First Minister said:

“In June this year, the inquiry came back to ask for groups of WhatsApp messages—the titles of those groups and who the members of the groups were—and then in September the inquiry asked for the individual messages”,

refusing to mention the fact that the inquiry had made similar requests in February, March, July and August. Shona Robison also went further. In response to my questions in the chamber on 31 October, she said:

“it is not correct to say that it has been a year since that request was made; it has been just over a month.”—[Official Report, 31 October 2023; c 66.]

That is not the truth. The evidence that was supplied by the Deputy First Minister in the Scottish Government-initiated question on 8 November contradicts that. Let us not forget that that evidence was supplied only by the SNP Government, because it was forced to do so by the UK Covid inquiry. The Scottish Government was all too happy to spin a different tale on timings until the inquiry called it out.

The First Minister was even more definitive in his framing of the requests. On 2 November, he said

“It is crucial to say that, when the UK Government inquiry asked us in June for details of the various WhatsApp groups concerning Covid 19, it did not request the messages themselves. The messages were asked for in September, just a matter of weeks ago.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2023; c 17.]

Again, that is not true—that is a false statement from the First Minister to this Parliament. Details of the WhatsApp groups were asked for a year ago—not five months ago, as Humza Yousaf claimed—and it was for nine months, not a matter of weeks, that the SNP Government left request after request for those messages outstanding. When I raised that with the First Minister last week, he said that the Government had interpreted the requests “too narrowly”. Too narrowly? It did not consider the requests at all. It ignored them time after time.

Two weeks ago, not a single WhatsApp message had been transferred from the Scottish Government to the Covid inquiry. The Scottish Parliament has been told contradictory stories about key messages that the Scottish National Party Government should have provided to the UK Covid inquiry and when that crucial information was requested.

Humza Yousaf and Shona Robison should be ashamed of their blatant attempt to deceive grieving families who lost loved ones during the Covid pandemic. They chose spin and secrecy over transparency and truth. How can we draw any other conclusion than that they have not been honest, have misled Parliament and have broken the ministerial code?

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-011247, in the name of Douglas Ross, on an independent investigation into the First Minister and Deputy F...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Truth is at the heart of the debate that we are having today, as are the efforts to get crucial answers for bereaved families who are looking to the Covid in...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Does Douglas Ross agree that one of the Nolan principles is accountability, according to which public office holders should “submit themselves to the scruti...
Douglas Ross Con
I absolutely agree with the member, who chairs the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee in Parliament. Let us not forget that previous SNP...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Would Douglas Ross agree that, because what is at stake here is the context of key decisions that were made in Government at a time of crisis, the failure to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Douglas Ross, I can give you the time back.
Douglas Ross Con
I absolutely agree with Daniel Johnson, and I will say this, repeatedly: it is not up to the Scottish Government and SNP ministers to say what is relevant or...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Mr Ross, I think that you are well aware of standing orders in relation to accusations that members have deliberately misled this Parliament. I give a warnin...
Douglas Ross Con
I am grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I will be careful. However, I believe that this was deliberate, because those statements were not a simple slip...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance (Shona Robison) SNP
I hope to set out today why I reject not only the motion but its premise. I start by repeating the First Minister’s acknowledgement last week that, in hindsi...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I keep hearing the Government use the excuse that it interpreted the requirements of the UK Covid inquiry too narrowly. I do not understand that. Many of us ...
Shona Robison SNP
Let me go into some of the detail on that in response to Alex Cole-Hamilton. In my statement of 31 October, and in answers to questions, I acknowledged that ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I struggle to understand why the Government misinterpreted the request and interpreted it so narrowly. The point of an inquiry is surely to understand why de...
Shona Robison SNP
The focus was on decision making and providing the record of decision making. The subsequent request from the inquiry was for the broader range of context th...
Douglas Ross Con
Can Shona Robison confirm when she, as a current member of the Government and a member of the previous Government, was made aware of the request in February ...
Shona Robison SNP
When I was making the preparations for the statement, the advice to me was very clear that the Scottish Government’s interpretation of those early requests w...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member give way?
Shona Robison SNP
Briefly.
Meghan Gallacher Con
How can the Government be fully transparent if WhatsApp messages were manually deleted by key players during the Covid-19 inquiry?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back, Deputy First Minister.
Shona Robison SNP
I dealt in my statement, at length, with the record management policy of the Government, which is that decision making, whether on WhatsApp or anything else,...
Martin Whitfield Lab
Will the member give way on that point?
Shona Robison SNP
I do not have time. I am sorry; I need to make progress. Further to my previous statement, and in line with a request from the UK inquiry, I provided the Pa...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Shona Robison SNP
I do not have time. In relation to messages that have been collated by the Scottish Government, we sought and received from the UK inquiry a section 21 noti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you a bit more time, Deputy First Minister.
Shona Robison SNP
Thank you. I want to highlight the information that I provided in my 31 October statement to the chamber regarding the handling and retention of records, in...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Will the Deputy First Minister take a brief intervention on that point?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The Deputy First Minister is just concluding.
Shona Robison SNP
I am sure that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will be able to address Ms Baillie’s point in his closing speech. I underline our commitment to do al...