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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 November 2023

08 Nov 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Cashback for Communities

We agree with the Scottish Government motion on cashback for communities, and I hope that the Government finds agreement with our constructive amendment.

Drug dealers prey on the weak and the vulnerable, they inflict misery and death across Scotland, and their dirty money poisons society and the economy. The Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 was groundbreaking when it came into force in 2004. The police were excited at the prospect of the powerful new weapon, and the crime gangs were in a panic. The rules, we were told, had changed—crime would no longer pay. Working as a journalist, I bought it. Dirty fortunes could be seized by using the less onerous civil standard of proof, “the balance of probabilities”.?Crucially, a criminal conviction would not be required.

In the crosshairs were the besuited bosses who do not get their manicured hands dirty. They stay at arm’s length from the drugs that kill countless numbers of our people and they never personally wield the knife or fire the gun. The first significant Scottish case became a protracted farce—a decade-long quagmire of legal attrition—and, in the end, the dirty fortune was whittled down to nothing, having lined only the pockets of lawyers.

That exposed the limitations of the new law and resulted in a fundamental change of direction. The new focus was instead on proceeds of crime being pursued after a criminal conviction had been secured. Of course, every single penny that is snatched from criminals and ploughed back into our communities is welcome—there is no question about that. Many young people across Scotland have benefited from the £130 million of dirty money distributed by cashback for communities, and the programme’s work makes a positive difference to many young lives. However, the cost of organised crime in Scotland is counted not in the millions but in the billions. The early optimism of the proceeds of crime programme has become blunted, and every week we see examples of that in the courts: cases in which vast criminal fortunes have been generated only for a fraction to be subject to a confiscation order.

Take the example of the international drug dealer James White from Glasgow. The Crown Office says, with confidence, based on the evidence, that he made £126 million—£126,241,001.29, to be precise—from killing countless Scots. That drug dealer has made the same amount as the entire 15-year spend of cashback for communities. How much of White’s drug money do the authorities hope to get their hands on? The answer is just more than £118,000, which represents less than 0.1 per cent. I hope that that example, and many others, will persuade the Government to look again at the legislation.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11127, in the name of Siobhian Brown, on cashback for communities. I invite members who wish to participa...
The Minister for Victims and Community Safety (Siobhian Brown) SNP
Many members will already be familiar with the cashback for communities programme and the work that it delivers in their communities. Some may have even visi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We are tight for time across the rest of the afternoon, so members who want to speak should press their request-to-speak buttons now. I call Russell Findlay...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
We agree with the Scottish Government motion on cashback for communities, and I hope that the Government finds agreement with our constructive amendment. Dr...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The member makes a very important point. I want to ask a question that I intend to be helpful, although it might be too complicated to answer here and now. W...
Russell Findlay Con
I will attempt to come on to that, but I have a lot to say. Criminals now regard proceeds of crime orders as a form of retrospective taxation—essentially, a...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to follow Russell Findlay, who makes a powerful case for a review, and to open the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. We support the programm...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
The member will be aware of the cross-border nature of much of that crime, including the supply of drugs to Scotland by road and rail from England. Given tha...
Katy Clark Lab
I would be very happy to write to the UK Government with Keith Brown. He clearly has a huge amount of experience to draw upon and I am sure that he is absolu...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I am pleased to speak in this debate on the cashback for communities programme. The Scottish Liberal Democrats believe that reducing crime involves a co-ord...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. We are tight for time. I call Christine Grahame, who has up to four minutes. 15:56
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Frequently, we become so accustomed to the innovative policies that the Parliament has introduced that we forget to reflect on—and, in some circumstances, to...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
One of the many interesting aspects of our role as MSPs is learning about incentives that bring cash back to our local communities. I welcome the opportunity...
Evelyn Tweed (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Scotland has committed to getting it right for every child and to creating an equal society in which every child and young person in Scotland can reach their...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
Cashback for communities has reinvested the proceeds of crime in our communities, thereby supporting more than 1 million young people, including many in Mid ...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am an ambassador for Ocean Youth Trust Scotland. I am pleased to speak in the debate b...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I welcome the motion and share its commendation of the cashback for communities programme. Over its 15-year history, it has developed to become more sensitiv...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I thank Siobhian Brown—who is no relation—for bringing the motion to the chamber for debate. I commend the work of cashback for communities, which uses money...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I add my support for the cashback for communities programme and for the Scottish Conservative amendment. I commend the scheme and recognise that, since 2008,...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is right that consensus has been found in the chamber today, in so far as it has been recognised that the cashback for communities programme has been bene...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I need to ask you to conclude.
Carol Mochan Lab
To conclude, I support this reinvestment in our communities. 16:33
Marie McNair (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
Over the past 15 years, the cashback for communities programme has played a crucial role in the lives of countless young people and communities across Scotla...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome this debate. It is some time since the Parliament discussed the cashback for communities programme. It is important to start off with Russell Fin...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Today’s debate has been interesting and worth while. This Parliament does not spend enough time debating the justice system or how to tackle the crime that i...
Keith Brown SNP
Given what Sharon Dowey has said about trying to increase the amount of money that is taken in from the proceeds of crime, would she be willing to write, alo...
Sharon Dowey Con
Mr Brown and Ms Clark have been in the justice section for a lot longer than I have, so I would want to see more detail on that. At present, all the moneys f...
Marie McNair SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Sharon Dowey Con
I will make some more progress, because I want to get through a lot of contributions from members. Crime gangs have already been emboldened by weaknesses in...
Siobhian Brown SNP
I thank everyone who has taken part in today’s debate and shared their positive experiences of the cashback for communities programme’s 15 years of benefitin...