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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 25 October 2023

25 Oct 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Skills
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I echo Murdo Fraser’s opening lament by noting that, in closing a debate as important as one that is about ensuring that Scotland’s skills system is fit for the future, I have a mere four minutes to hit the main points. As many members have said this afternoon, this is perhaps the key issue that we must address if we are to sort out Scotland’s economy and give our young and not-so-young people the skills to succeed in the Scotland of the future as well as the Scotland of the present.

I commend Labour for using its Opposition debate time to move a sensible motion, which we shall support. However, I find it nothing short of appalling that, despite Audit Scotland’s conclusion that the Scottish Government needed to take urgent action on skills almost two years ago, despite the Withers review’s conclusion that skills delivery has lacked clear leadership and direction, and despite the substantial structural change that is recommended to ensure that the skills system is fit for the future, the Scottish Government has failed to bring such a debate to the chamber and give us proper debate time, just as, as Daniel Johnson pointed out, it has been largely silent since the Withers review.

This afternoon, we have heard that we all agree that Scotland urgently needs a vision for a flexible and responsive skills delivery system that is fit for the future, but we will not get to that by slashing around 150,000 college places since 2007, especially when, as Willie Rennie said, the Fraser of Allander Institute reports that college graduates will benefit the Scottish economy by around £52 billion over their working lives. We will not get there by seriously underfunding our further education sector and then, as Colin Smyth said, whipping a further £26 million away from it. We will not get there by failing to be transparent about funding from the apprenticeship levy and, as Pam Gosal highlighted, by delaying funding to training providers and learners, or by making it difficult to access flexible workforce development funding, as Murdo Fraser said, or by simply accepting a situation in which there are 350 fewer science teachers, 300 fewer maths teachers and 65 fewer physics teachers in 2022 than there were in 2008.

However, we have heard that things such as parity of esteem between further education, higher education and apprenticeships, as demanded by the Conservative amendment, will help. Increasing and properly funding the number of apprenticeships will help, alongside clarity and transparency around the levy. Offering every adult access to skills funding through a right-to-retrain programme will help. Taking note of the recommendations in the Withers review, such as ending the duplication of bodies and the creation of a targeted skills development board that directs funding and opportunities to industries and areas where there is a workforce shortfall, will also help. As Martin Whitfield said, we need more urgency and more action.

With regard to what will help, Brian Whittle also made a key point. We have so many opportunities in areas such as the green, blue and rural economies, but those are often stymied, due first to an obsession with headline-grabbing targets that are not underpinned by a delivery plan, and secondly to a highly concerning tendency to engage in silo thinking instead of the cross-cutting vision and oversight that is required. For those reasons, Parliament should vote for the motion in Daniel Johnson’s name and for the amendment in Murdo Fraser’s name.

16:30  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-10922, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on ensuring that Scotland’s skills system is fit for the future. I ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The skills debate has never been more prominent nor more important. That is not just because of recent publications and reports in Scotland. When we look glo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call the minister to speak to and move amendment S6M-10922.2. 15:39
The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey) SNP
I genuinely welcome Labour bringing this debate, although it is brief, to the chamber because it gives me an opportunity to outline the work that has been un...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Graeme Dey SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I apologise—I have five minutes. Withers found that there is confusion and duplication in our public body landscape but,...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I welcome this debate on the future of the Scottish skills agenda, although it is a pity that it is taking place in Opposition time and that it is so short. ...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
We will support the Labour motion, but I give credit to the minister following the Withers review. He has engaged in a positive fashion, and the omens are go...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:53
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
If we want an illustration of the lack of leadership and urgency from the Government in facing up to and tackling the skills shortages that we face today, an...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
The roll-out of the Scottish Government’s 10-year just transition fund is in its first years, and the substantial structural change that Labour’s motion call...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to contribute to this debate on the importance of Scotland’s skills landscape to its future economy. I will support the amendment in the name ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Pam Gosal in this debate, because she highlighted an issue that is so important—the fact that there are unconventional routes thro...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I thank Labour for securing the debate for the chamber. The motion calls for “structural change”, and that has been committed to, I believe. However, I alwa...
Graeme Dey SNP
I reassure John Mason that the points that he is making are perfectly valid and are informing a lot of our thinking around the national career service, in or...
John Mason SNP
That is great, and I am reassured by that. James Withers goes on to say: “different pathways are simply different: not better, not worse, just different.” ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I thank the Labour Party for bringing such an important issue to the chamber. In my view, it is an ...
Graeme Dey SNP
Brian Whittle makes points about delivery on emissions targets. Why is it that the Conservatives oppose every measure that comes forward in the Parliament to...
Brian Whittle Con
If the minister had been listening, he would have heard that I said that that was a great idea. As I said, who will fit and service those heat pumps, let alo...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Our economy is changing—indeed, it has to change. Living in the midst of a climate emergency, as we are, it has perhaps never been clearer that business as u...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
This afternoon’s debate has been fascinating. There has been a fair degree of consensus—well, in parts. In the first instance, we all accept that there is a ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I echo Murdo Fraser’s opening lament by noting that, in closing a debate as important as one that is about ensuring that Scotland’s skills system is fit for ...
The Minister for Small Business, Innovation, Tourism and Trade (Richard Lochhead) SNP
I think that one thing on which we can all agree is that this is a very important debate. I welcome the fact that the Labour Party has brought it to the cham...
Brian Whittle Lab
I am grateful to the minister for giving up some of his time. Would he agree that it is important that, in a marketing sense, we ensure that pupils at school...
Richard Lochhead SNP
Yes—of course that is important. We have to talk about what is happening in our schools as well as in the further and higher education system and in the wide...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
No—the minister is just about to conclude.
Richard Lochhead SNP
Colleges are training people to install air-source heat pumps and other equipment. A lot is happening. I hope that we can work together to build consensus an...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to wind up the debate. 16:35
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to close the debate for Labour today. We brought today’s debate before Parliament because the stakes to get skills right have never been hig...