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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 25 October 2023

25 Oct 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Skills

We will support the Labour motion, but I give credit to the minister following the Withers review. He has engaged in a positive fashion, and the omens are good for a good policy in the future.

However, the Government’s recent record on skills has not been positive. To be frank, the previous minister did not seem to be too interested in the whole area. We have been waiting for more than five years for skills landscape reform, but the then minister acted only after he was criticised by Audit Scotland for a lack of leadership. Although we have the Withers review, we do not have the Government’s formal official response, so it could be even longer from the initial start point when the landscape review was supposed to be undertaken before we get any change.

The world is changing fast. We are going through a new green industrial revolution. While we wait a long time for the reforms to come, the world is moving on, and I fear the consequences of that.

It would be wrong not to mention colleges today, especially following this week’s report from the Fraser of Allander Institute, which said that college graduates will boost the economy by £52 billion over their working lives. Shona Struthers was right when she said this week that that report

“quantifies the huge return on investment”

from Scottish colleges. However, the crucial bit is that she was puzzled that there

“isn’t a decisive move to invest more, and gain more”.

She said that

“in fact, investment is falling sharply”.

In other words, the college sector delivers billions and could deliver more, but the Government is cutting millions. The symptoms of that are strikes, the threat of compulsory redundancies and the loss of opportunity for potential students. We need to invest in the college sector if we are to get the proper return that has been promised.

There is much to commend in the Withers review. It brings clarity for employers, training providers and students about roles and responsibilities, and it gives intelligent control over how the money is spent.

For students, there is a new careers service, which the minister thinks is a central piece of the Withers review, to be led by the newly reformed Skills Development Scotland. The aim would be to cover not only those who choose a non-university career trajectory but those who go into higher education, so that everybody gets the best advice.

For employers, there is better, clear advice from a single source through Scottish Enterprise, which is long overdue. There would also be more systematic involvement of employers in skills planning.

For everyone, there is a single source of funding that brings together education and skills under national and regional planning to set out immediate and future skills needs. There would be parity of esteem to use the Scottish credit and qualifications framework much more effectively.

There are questions about the role of the employers group—the Scottish apprenticeship advisory board—which I will meet tomorrow. However, the devil will be in the detail of subsequent decisions on policy and funding.

Simplification can sometimes mean a lack of sophistication, with some losing out. For example, although it does not quite state this, the Withers review implies that the flexible workforce development fund should end and be brought under the main central funding arrangements. As Murdo Fraser highlighted, some employers might lose out as a result of that simplification and lack of sophistication. We therefore need to ensure that the new system takes account of all those needs.

Bringing together funding for higher education, further education and skills will mean little if there is not a transfer of funds between those different functions. However, that transfer will be fought fiercely by those who are defending already-shrinking budgets. We must address the simplification on that front, too.

Those matters are difficult, but we must have such discussions—with much more time—if the reformed skills landscape is to be fit for the future.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-10922, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on ensuring that Scotland’s skills system is fit for the future. I ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The skills debate has never been more prominent nor more important. That is not just because of recent publications and reports in Scotland. When we look glo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call the minister to speak to and move amendment S6M-10922.2. 15:39
The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey) SNP
I genuinely welcome Labour bringing this debate, although it is brief, to the chamber because it gives me an opportunity to outline the work that has been un...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Graeme Dey SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I apologise—I have five minutes. Withers found that there is confusion and duplication in our public body landscape but,...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I welcome this debate on the future of the Scottish skills agenda, although it is a pity that it is taking place in Opposition time and that it is so short. ...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
We will support the Labour motion, but I give credit to the minister following the Withers review. He has engaged in a positive fashion, and the omens are go...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 15:53
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
If we want an illustration of the lack of leadership and urgency from the Government in facing up to and tackling the skills shortages that we face today, an...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
The roll-out of the Scottish Government’s 10-year just transition fund is in its first years, and the substantial structural change that Labour’s motion call...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to contribute to this debate on the importance of Scotland’s skills landscape to its future economy. I will support the amendment in the name ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Pam Gosal in this debate, because she highlighted an issue that is so important—the fact that there are unconventional routes thro...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I thank Labour for securing the debate for the chamber. The motion calls for “structural change”, and that has been committed to, I believe. However, I alwa...
Graeme Dey SNP
I reassure John Mason that the points that he is making are perfectly valid and are informing a lot of our thinking around the national career service, in or...
John Mason SNP
That is great, and I am reassured by that. James Withers goes on to say: “different pathways are simply different: not better, not worse, just different.” ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I thank the Labour Party for bringing such an important issue to the chamber. In my view, it is an ...
Graeme Dey SNP
Brian Whittle makes points about delivery on emissions targets. Why is it that the Conservatives oppose every measure that comes forward in the Parliament to...
Brian Whittle Con
If the minister had been listening, he would have heard that I said that that was a great idea. As I said, who will fit and service those heat pumps, let alo...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Our economy is changing—indeed, it has to change. Living in the midst of a climate emergency, as we are, it has perhaps never been clearer that business as u...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
This afternoon’s debate has been fascinating. There has been a fair degree of consensus—well, in parts. In the first instance, we all accept that there is a ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I echo Murdo Fraser’s opening lament by noting that, in closing a debate as important as one that is about ensuring that Scotland’s skills system is fit for ...
The Minister for Small Business, Innovation, Tourism and Trade (Richard Lochhead) SNP
I think that one thing on which we can all agree is that this is a very important debate. I welcome the fact that the Labour Party has brought it to the cham...
Brian Whittle Lab
I am grateful to the minister for giving up some of his time. Would he agree that it is important that, in a marketing sense, we ensure that pupils at school...
Richard Lochhead SNP
Yes—of course that is important. We have to talk about what is happening in our schools as well as in the further and higher education system and in the wide...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
No—the minister is just about to conclude.
Richard Lochhead SNP
Colleges are training people to install air-source heat pumps and other equipment. A lot is happening. I hope that we can work together to build consensus an...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to wind up the debate. 16:35
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to close the debate for Labour today. We brought today’s debate before Parliament because the stakes to get skills right have never been hig...