Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
14
Parties on record
2,095,827
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Clear
Showing 0 of 2,095,827 contributions in session S6, 12 May 2026 – 11 Jun 2026. Latest 30 days: 3,026. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 10 Jun 2026.

No contributions match those filters.

← Back to list
Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 October 2023

04 Oct 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Two-child Benefit Cap

I assure Miles Briggs that I am coming to that. I have a suggested solution, and I am sure that we will hear many more during today’s debate.

That money does not include our investment in the game-changing Scottish child payment, which we introduced to support families affected by the utter inadequacy of universal credit. By the end of the financial year, we will have spent more than £700 million on the payment. In fact, Professor Danny Dorling, from the University of Oxford, recently commended the Scottish child payment for having delivered

“the biggest fall in child poverty anywhere in Europe for at least 40 years.”

We made it clear in our programme for government that we are committed to reducing child poverty. It is therefore galling that the impact of our investment is lessened, because of the policies of the UK Government. We estimate that 90,000 fewer children will live in relative and absolute poverty this year because of the Scottish Government’s policies, with poverty levels 9 percentage points lower than they would have been without Scottish Government benefits. The latest poverty statistics, which we published in March, show that Scottish child poverty rates continue to be around 6 percentage points lower than the UK average, with the actions of this Government expected to increase that gap still further. This is, of course, challenge poverty week. How much easier would it be to effectively challenge poverty in Scotland, if it were not for the punitive policy measures imposed by the UK Government such as the two-child limit?

It is clear that this Government has very different priorities from the current UK Government—and, it would seem, from any future UK Government. Our priority is supporting children and families out of poverty. Surely everyone in this chamber can agree that the UK Government’s approach to child poverty is severely lacking and that that is perfectly captured in its failure to remove the two-child limit.

Our efforts are further threatened by the fact that the Labour Party now seems to have signed up to that long list of Tory policies. Last year, at the Scottish Labour Party conference, Anas Sarwar said:

“our children’s generation … won’t praise us for halving child poverty. They will ask what we did to eradicate it.”

Well, I know what this Scottish Government has done. Since 2018, we have spent about £1.4 billion on mitigation and the Scottish child payment alone. What exactly can the Labour Party say that it has done, when it cannot even commit to scrapping the two-child cap?

Let us be very clear: keeping the two-child limit and rape clause is a choice—Labour’s choice, and a Scottish Conservative choice, too. Labour’s spending pledges are a political choice. It claims that the financial mess left by the Tories might impede it from doing the right thing. Let me help both parties, but particularly the Labour Party, out on that. How about not spending an extraordinary estimated £205 billion on Trident renewal? How about Labour putting bairns first, not bombs? That is exactly the type of political choice that would help us eradicate child poverty, if Labour had the confidence and the courage to do it.

Amid the chaos of Keir Starmer’s U-turn, the sheer breathtaking hypocrisy of the Scottish Labour Party has now kicked into action. First, we had the ridiculous claims from the Scottish Labour leader that scrapping the policy would “spook the markets”. Then Jackie Baillie swooped to the rescue, taking to the airwaves to call on this Scottish Government to do exactly what her own party had just said it would not do and to scrap the cap. You could not make it up—a call from Scottish Labour to mitigate what UK Labour has been proposing.

In further evidence of that chaotic and hypocritical position, we have the Labour Party’s amendment today. I have to say that I was a bit dumbfounded when I read it last night. It asks us to

“welcome ... the proposal for a New Deal for Working People”.

For the record, I do welcome it—the problem is that Keir Starmer does not. After an avalanche of U-turns this summer, the Labour leader ripped up the plans. The promises to raise statutory sick pay and extend it to the self-employed have gone; the complete ban on zero-hours contracts has gone, too; and as for the promise to raise the minimum wage, quite frankly it looks a bit dubious when the Labour leader has diluted it from £15 an hour to—well, we will see what happens next week or next month.

Later this week—[Interruption.] Oh dear, Mr O’Kane—no wonder you are worried. I would be worried too, Mr O’Kane, if I were you.

Later this week, Labour members will be attending their party conference, and a vote will take place on those hollowed-out policy plans. So what exactly is Anas Sarwar’s position? Is he planning to back his party’s amendment today, and then head to Liverpool to approve a complete U-turn on the plans?

We on these benches and in this Scottish Government remain committed to strengthening workers’ rights. It is very clear that more needs to be done—[Interruption.] I appreciate that Scottish Labour members are finding this uncomfortable, but perhaps they should listen and learn from a Government that is taking action to tackle child poverty.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-10716, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on reversal of the United Kingdom Government’s two-child b...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate and to call unequivocally on the UK Government to end the harmful and discriminatory two-child limit and the abhorrent rape c...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Can the cabinet secretary explain to the chamber why, in April 2019, she said to The Times: “It’s not our policy to alleviate the two-child cap”? Indeed, s...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
There is the irony—I have to mitigate not only what the Tories are doing, but the Labour Party, too. What a sad indictment of where Scottish Labour is now. I...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary’s policy calls on the UK Government to find £300 million. Where does she suggest that UK ministers find that money?
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
I assure Miles Briggs that I am coming to that. I have a suggested solution, and I am sure that we will hear many more during today’s debate. That money doe...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am interested to know what discussions you have had with the First Minister about the U-turns around school meals. Could you discuss with us how often you ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I ask members to speak through the chair. I call the cabinet secretary.
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Indeed, if there had been a U-turn I would have discussed it, but there has been none and therefore no need to have that conversation. It is clear, more t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can advise the chamber that there is a bit of time in hand, so there should be time to recompense members who take interventions. That is all the more reas...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I am always pleased to be able to debate welfare in the Parliament, and I welcome the fact that the Government has brought forward the debate. However, perha...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs Con
No. Can I make some progress? I will be happy to take the member’s intervention later. It is hard to think of any UK Government in recent history, except pe...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member has talked a lot about duty, and I thought that I would make my question more topical. His Prime Minister has today talked about the importance of...
Miles Briggs Con
That is not the case. As the member clearly knows, the policy is about fairness for working families as well—all families having to take difficult decisions....
Carol Mochan Lab
Can the member tell me whether he and his colleagues accept that the Westminster Conservative Government’s approach to benefits means that many families find...
Miles Briggs Con
I am always in favour of the DWP and Social Security Scotland having discussions about how we simplify access to benefits. That is something that both depart...
The Minister for Equalities, Migration and Refugees (Emma Roddick) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs Con
I would like to make some progress; I have only a few minutes left. I will see if I have time to let the member in later on. Recent SNP-Green cuts to, for e...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
I have very much enjoyed the member’s speech on childcare and employability, but I wonder whether we could get back to the point of the motion. Can he tell t...
Miles Briggs Con
As I have said, these are difficult decisions, and Governments have had to take them. The cabinet secretary has also got to think about that. However, the fa...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs Con
No. I am coming to a conclusion. The Scottish Government has the ability to top up reserved benefits if it wishes, and we, as a Parliament, have the opportu...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We meet this afternoon in the middle of challenge poverty week, and, as I have said before in the chamber, there are few issues as important as tackling pove...
Kate Forbes SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Paul O’Kane Lab
I will in a moment. Perhaps we are meeting in that context rather than for the wide-ranging, constructive debate that we could be having about challenging p...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member rightly talks about poverty being quite a wide issue. Peter Kelly, of the Poverty Alliance, has described the benefit cap as “the worst of the” ...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I am coming on to speak about why universal credit does not work and why it needs to be fundamentally reformed. We need to see wide-ranging change, because i...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I am interested in the Labour amendment, which talks about the “New Deal for Working People”, There are a lot of reasonable things that I absolutely agree ...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank Mr Doris for his supportive comments on the new deal for working people. I hope that he might convince members on the front bench to back our amendme...