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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 May 2023

03 May 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Governing Party (Transparency)
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

It was only last Wednesday when the Parliament debated transparency, and we—all of us in that debate, including SNP members—agreed in principle that the Parliament has a primary duty to the public to be as open and transparent as possible when accounting for public money. Ministers have such a duty too. Surely taxpayers have a right to know exactly what their money is being spent on and, just as important, why elected members in this place make certain choices. As politicians, we need to be held fully accountable for every single decision that we make, most especially when it comes to spending other people’s money.

I completely understand that a police inquiry about current events inside the SNP is on-going and that it is not appropriate to comment on those recent events. However, as Douglas Ross rightly said, that should not overshadow the important issue of the lack of transparency inside the Government and inside Scotland’s ruling party, because that is interlinked. The Parliament has a clear interest in establishing probity, so we will not shy away from asking important questions of the First Minister.

Auditors general round the world acknowledge that there are five principles of good governance: accountability, leadership, integrity, stewardship and transparency. Personally, I do not see how anyone could argue otherwise or seek to undermine those principles. However, that is exactly what we see in the SNP currently, and that is a matter of public interest.

Just yesterday, The Times reported on the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s inquiry into the efficacy of Scottish Government decision making. It does not make good reading for the Scottish Government, not just because too much decision making has been seen by senior civil servants and former senior ministers to be “rushed, unclear and unstructured” but because some financial rules have, on occasion, been found to be optional.

That must be a concern for us all, yet the Scottish Government seems to be rubbishing the report, although the committee’s inquiry is not yet concluded. That is just not acceptable.

As a member of that committee, I am very clear that all is not well when it comes to Government openness, transparency and accountability. It is true that Audit Scotland and the Scottish Fiscal Commission have welcomed efforts to improve transparency in the Scottish budget, but they have also warned strongly that that simply is not good enough. We have heard so much about the profligate waste of failed Scottish Government projects, which have cost in the region of £350 million. The committee has been told that we have to start thinking about serious reforms so that we get much better transparency.

The named person legislation, the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021, the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill, gender recognition reform, the deposit return scheme and the highly protected marine areas programme—which we will debate later today—are all examples of Scottish Government failures when it comes to good governance.

On top of all that, and worst of all, we have the murky and disreputable goings-on inside the party of government. Not only are openness and transparency good practice for measuring best value for taxpayers’ money, but they are essential if there is to be renewed trust between Government and the public. The loss of that trust currently is very serious, and it is particularly serious for this country. Therefore, I support the motion in the name of Douglas Ross.

15:11  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-08764, in the name of Douglas Ross, on the transparency of Scotland’s governing party. I invite those mem...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I hope that, with the early start, we have a bit more flexibility in some of the timings this afternoon, because I am keen that this is a proper debate and t...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
The member says that he is genuine—could he expand on that by telling us the membership of the Conservative Party in Scotland? Is it 6,500, which is the numb...
Douglas Ross Con
That is the most predictable intervention of the afternoon, which will probably be repeated by several others—I thought that such a question might have come ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Ross, please resume your seat. At this stage in the debate, it might be instructive if I remind members that there are certain expectations about language...
Douglas Ross Con
We clarified that through the Presiding Officer’s office this morning. I am not saying that any individual member in the Parliament lied; I am saying that, c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call George Adam, to speak to and move amendment S6M— 14:51
The Minister for Cabinet and Parliamentary Business (George Adam) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Minister, I have to read out my bit first. I call George Adam, to speak to and move amendment S6M-08764.2.
George Adam SNP
I was just so keen to get involved in this debate, Presiding Officer. That was definitely a thing from Douglas Ross—I am not sure what it was and I am not s...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the member take an intervention?
George Adam SNP
No, we have heard enough from Mr Ross. The absolute hypocrisy from the Conservatives is almost laughable. We have to admire someone who has the brass neck t...
Douglas Ross Con
Ah! Tell us about them!
George Adam SNP
Mr Ross is having a lot of fun and games over there in the corner, shouting from the sidelines. It must be from his time as a referee.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We cannot have two members standing at the same time. Mr Ross, by not taking your intervention requests, the minister indicated that he is probably not plann...
George Adam SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have said that we are dealing with that. Within days of his election as leader, the First Minister announced an urgent revie...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the minister give way on that point?
George Adam SNP
We are not hearing what the Conservatives’ membership numbers are; of the five parties that are represented in the chamber, only two—the SNP and the Scottish...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the minister give way on that point?
George Adam SNP
I am quite happy if Douglas Ross wants to say the membership number now.
Douglas Ross Con
I am grateful that the minister has finally taken an intervention. Will he accept that his party lied about its figures, and that led to the resignation in t...
George Adam SNP
My goodness—I gave Douglas Ross the opportunity to build himself up into a frenzy, and that was a bit of a damp squib from him. That comes from the party of ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
With the recent revelations about its finances, the culture of secrecy, spin and cover-up at the heart of the SNP has been laid bare for all to see. I find i...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
It has been a painful few weeks for the SNP—a party that has seemed impregnable for the past 16 years is now shambling, anarchic and quarrelling. I almost—al...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches will be of four minutes’ length. 15:07
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It was only last Wednesday when the Parliament debated transparency, and we—all of us in that debate, including SNP members—agreed in principle that the Parl...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
There is certainly a lot in the motion and the amendments, so I will not try to cover everything in four minutes. First, on the SNP accounts, I understand t...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
No—I am afraid that I have only four minutes. With 74,000 members, the SNP is clearly well ahead of both those parties. As a percentage of the relevant elec...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You need to conclude, Mr Mason.