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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 May 2023

03 May 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Governing Party (Transparency)
Ross, Douglas Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

We clarified that through the Presiding Officer’s office this morning. I am not saying that any individual member in the Parliament lied; I am saying that, clearly, there were actions by the SNP on misleading claims about its membership numbers that led to the resignation of the SNP’s head of media and the resignation of the former chief executive of the SNP. Just days before he was arrested by the police, he resigned from the role that he had held for years because of the SNP’s conduct on its membership numbers. That is why I am saying that I will take no lectures from the SNP on the issue.

The fact is that there remain serious questions to be answered. The First Minister seems quite happy to answer the questions outside the chamber—he always stops to speak to the press to give his views on a host of issues. As an Opposition leader, I want to see that continue, because he has only been beaten by Colin Beattie in his attempts to provide no more press stories but subsequently answering the press and providing us with plenty of nuggets. If the First Minister is happy to give those answers to the press just a few metres from the chamber, why is he not happy to come here to answer those questions? Not only is he unwilling to answer the questions in the chamber, he is unwilling even to attend this debate to respond.

There are so many questions, Deputy Presiding Officer. For example, how were the supposedly ring-fenced indyref2 funds that were raised through yes.scot and ref.scot spent? How was that money spent? Why did the party’s former chief executive Peter Murrell give the SNP a six figure loan, and when will that loan be repaid? Was the loan a consideration in any decision not to suspend Peter Murrell, Colin Beattie or, potentially, any other MSP currently serving in the Parliament who may find themselves arrested by the police? Why was the unused motorhome kept at the home of the former First Minister’s mother-in-law? Why were members of the SNP’s finance and audit committee refused information about the party’s accounts?

We have several senior members of the Government and the SNP in the chamber for this debate. That is a flavour of some of the questions that we would like to put to the First Minister. In his absence, can any SNP MSP answer those questions?

Silence. We have the Deputy First Minister of the Government and the deputy leader of the party in Scotland in the chamber, but there are no answers to very basic questions. These are basic questions that are being asked by our constituents and members of the public across the country.

It is important that we have transparency at the heart of Government and that we have a governing party that is willing to answer those questions. Sadly, we do not. In the time that I have left, I want to look at the amendments that will be moved by the parliamentary business manager for the Scottish Government. Incredibly, the amendment deletes massive amounts of the motion that I lodged, including some of the key lines.

George Adam wants SNP MSPs to vote for an amendment that deletes a statement allowing them to agree that the scandal engulfing the party of government in Scotland should be properly scrutinised and debated. Why would anyone not want the situation to be properly scrutinised and debated?

Mr Adam’s amendment deletes the line that calls for

“a more transparent budget process”.

Why would anyone not want that? It deletes a line saying that we should

“give arm’s-length bodies control over information publication”.

Why would we not want to give them more control over that? Further, it also deletes a line that calls on the Scottish Government to

“improve scrutiny of breaches of the ministerial code”.

Why would any MSP representing the governing parties in Scotland vote for an amendment that takes out those key lines on transparency and openness?

Today marks 16 years since the SNP was elected to government. During that time, we have seen secrecy, spin and cover-ups at the heart of the Government. Today is an opportunity for SNP members to say that enough is enough, and that it has been happening for too long. They can do that by voting for the Scottish Conservative motion, by supporting the Labour amendment, which adds to the scrutiny that we seek and by voting down the shameful amendment from the Scottish Government, which wants to delete much of the transparency that this Parliament and the people of Scotland deserve.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that the First Minister, as leader of the governing party of Scotland, should make a statement to the chamber of the Scottish Parliament about the governance of the Scottish National Party (SNP); agrees that these are matters of public interest and should be properly scrutinised and debated in the national parliament; notes that the Scottish Government has lacked transparency and openness in its administration of government across Scotland; calls, therefore, on the Scottish Government to end its pre-release access of statistics, deliver a more transparent budget process, give arm’s-length bodies control over information publication, publish a transparency list of public sector officials who earn more than the First Minister, set swifter publication dates for ministerial expenses and transport dates and improve scrutiny of breaches of the ministerial code, and condemns the SNP for its lack of candour about its membership and governance, and for its abject failure to concentrate on the priorities of the people of Scotland.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-08764, in the name of Douglas Ross, on the transparency of Scotland’s governing party. I invite those mem...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I hope that, with the early start, we have a bit more flexibility in some of the timings this afternoon, because I am keen that this is a proper debate and t...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
The member says that he is genuine—could he expand on that by telling us the membership of the Conservative Party in Scotland? Is it 6,500, which is the numb...
Douglas Ross Con
That is the most predictable intervention of the afternoon, which will probably be repeated by several others—I thought that such a question might have come ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Ross, please resume your seat. At this stage in the debate, it might be instructive if I remind members that there are certain expectations about language...
Douglas Ross Con
We clarified that through the Presiding Officer’s office this morning. I am not saying that any individual member in the Parliament lied; I am saying that, c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call George Adam, to speak to and move amendment S6M— 14:51
The Minister for Cabinet and Parliamentary Business (George Adam) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Minister, I have to read out my bit first. I call George Adam, to speak to and move amendment S6M-08764.2.
George Adam SNP
I was just so keen to get involved in this debate, Presiding Officer. That was definitely a thing from Douglas Ross—I am not sure what it was and I am not s...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the member take an intervention?
George Adam SNP
No, we have heard enough from Mr Ross. The absolute hypocrisy from the Conservatives is almost laughable. We have to admire someone who has the brass neck t...
Douglas Ross Con
Ah! Tell us about them!
George Adam SNP
Mr Ross is having a lot of fun and games over there in the corner, shouting from the sidelines. It must be from his time as a referee.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We cannot have two members standing at the same time. Mr Ross, by not taking your intervention requests, the minister indicated that he is probably not plann...
George Adam SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have said that we are dealing with that. Within days of his election as leader, the First Minister announced an urgent revie...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the minister give way on that point?
George Adam SNP
We are not hearing what the Conservatives’ membership numbers are; of the five parties that are represented in the chamber, only two—the SNP and the Scottish...
Douglas Ross Con
Will the minister give way on that point?
George Adam SNP
I am quite happy if Douglas Ross wants to say the membership number now.
Douglas Ross Con
I am grateful that the minister has finally taken an intervention. Will he accept that his party lied about its figures, and that led to the resignation in t...
George Adam SNP
My goodness—I gave Douglas Ross the opportunity to build himself up into a frenzy, and that was a bit of a damp squib from him. That comes from the party of ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
With the recent revelations about its finances, the culture of secrecy, spin and cover-up at the heart of the SNP has been laid bare for all to see. I find i...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
It has been a painful few weeks for the SNP—a party that has seemed impregnable for the past 16 years is now shambling, anarchic and quarrelling. I almost—al...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches will be of four minutes’ length. 15:07
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It was only last Wednesday when the Parliament debated transparency, and we—all of us in that debate, including SNP members—agreed in principle that the Parl...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
There is certainly a lot in the motion and the amendments, so I will not try to cover everything in four minutes. First, on the SNP accounts, I understand t...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
No—I am afraid that I have only four minutes. With 74,000 members, the SNP is clearly well ahead of both those parties. As a percentage of the relevant elec...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You need to conclude, Mr Mason.