Hansard

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP

Good morning, and welcome to the sixth meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. There are no apologies this morning. Our first item of business is ...

Teresa Medhurst (Scottish Prison Service)

Good morning, convener and committee members. Excuse me—I have a bit of a cold, so I will try to work through that as we go through the session. Thank you f...

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown) SNP

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today to answer questions regarding the management of transgender prisoners and the recommendations of the urgent ca...

The Convener SNP

Thank you very much. We will now move to questions. I intend to allow 45 minutes for members to ask questions.

Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con

I echo what the cabinet secretary said: we are not suggesting that trans women inherently pose some kind of threat. The issue has always been about predatory...

Keith Brown

I am not here to discuss other people’s views. I am here as the Cabinet Secretary for Justice to answer questions about the Prison Service’s policy. I would ...

Russell Findlay Con

But if this goes to the heart of—

Keith Brown SNP

Let me finish my point. You have asked a question.

Russell Findlay Con

We have very little time.

Keith Brown SNP

If you have other questions, you can ask them after I have finished my answer, please.

Russell Findlay Con

Okay. Given the amount of time that we have, I do not want to—

The Convener SNP

We are here to discuss the specifics of the lessons learned review. I would be grateful if you could refine your questions to focus on the review.

Russell Findlay Con

Okay. The reason why I think that my question is relevant is that it goes to the heart of where we are now. The Prison Service is conducting a review. If sen...

Keith Brown SNP

I was trying to answer, but you would not allow me to answer. That was the point that I was trying to make. Can I try to answer now?

Russell Findlay Con

Okay. Who is right in terms of definition?

The Convener SNP

You are asking the same question. I ask you to ask another question.

Keith Brown SNP

Convener, I am happy to answer the question, but I would like to try to get through my answer before being interrupted, if possible. As justice secretary, m...

Russell Findlay Con

When did you find out that this particular prisoner had been sent to a women’s prison?

Keith Brown SNP

I found out when it became evident from the media. I am not normally uniformly told of every prisoner who is sent to prison.

Russell Findlay Con

Even though this was quite a high-profile and on-going High Court case, and people were aware of the issue, nobody had informed you.

Keith Brown SNP

I have just answered that question.

Russell Findlay Con

Once the transfer became known about, you initially defended the decision. The following day, the First Minister announced that the prisoner was being remove...

Keith Brown SNP

At the time, I said to the Parliament that I had faith in the basis on which the Scottish Prison Service deals with prisoners who are transgender. It has an ...

Russell Findlay Con

On 31 January, you told the Parliament that “The SPS was, of course, aware of ministers’ views—it would be, frankly, bizarre if the SPS had not been aware o...

Keith Brown SNP

As you have mentioned, there was a substantial degree of publicity around that. Obviously, ministers have discussions with officials and the agencies for whi...

Russell Findlay Con

How were the Government’s views made known to the Prison Service?

Keith Brown

I have just explained that, convener.

The Convener SNP

Perhaps I can—

Russell Findlay Con

I am not entirely sure that we know how the Government communicated to the Prison Service its dissatisfaction with that prisoner being in the female estate. ...

Teresa Medhurst

During a conversation with officials, I was asked about where we were in the case management of that individual, because the case management process applies ...